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Old 06-21-2016, 11:33 AM   #4229
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^Pushy brz checking in.

As to those opposing the changes, do you have an alternate suggestion to balance it out? The brz attendance is dismal at best at a lot of national events. I'm still running mine because I'm a noob and there is a lot of driver skill that needs fixing before I can actually compete to stay midpack or close to trophies, but I wouldn't want to run an underdog in a competition if I was better. Driving both the FR-S and BRZ at prosolos, the FR-S felt much better and less pushy. That minimal camber gain, a stiffer rear bar definitely do help.

Write to support allowing TRD for the BRZ if you don't want them moved to DS.
Hyundai Genesis attendance is also dismal. Does that mean we need to find it a class it can win? No.

Sorry, this won't be popular on here but I lost my empathy for the BRZ after too many threads of "I'd rather die than be caught driving a Scion". Let's face it, at the end of the day there are enough FR-S's for every single BRZ owner in the SCCA to easily go trade into one. I have seen people drop $4k on a whim to get new wheels/tires for their BRZ before all of this TRD BS. I think if you can afford that, you can afford to make the nearly straight change from the BRZ to the FRS, IF being competitive at autocross is your top priority. If having the Subaru logo is that important to you, I can't imagine that you are really in the position to complain about the relatively small different between the two.
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:41 AM   #4230
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Hyundai Genesis attendance is also dismal. Does that mean we need to find it a class it can win? No.

Sorry, this won't be popular on here but I lost my empathy for the BRZ after too many threads of "I'd rather die than be caught driving a Scion". Let's face it, at the end of the day there are enough FR-S's for every single BRZ owner in the SCCA to easily go trade into one. I have seen people drop $4k on a whim to get new wheels/tires for their BRZ before all of this TRD BS. I think if you can afford that, you can afford to make the nearly straight change from the BRZ to the FRS, IF being competitive at autocross is your top priority. If having the Subaru logo is that important to you, I can't imagine that you are really in the position to complain about the relatively small different between the two.
Here's another example of a person that has the option to bolt on gofast parts telling the ones that don't to suck it up. The letters have been written to request a move. The move does not impact you, so why get in the way? People in DS should be writing letters if anyone. For the record, I did not write any letters requesting any moves. I bailed on my CS BRZ effort after a bit too much frustration with a car that was underperforming, and the BRZ is now my daily driver while I have much more fun back in and STU STI :P
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Old 06-21-2016, 01:33 PM   #4231
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Hyundai Genesis attendance is also dismal. Does that mean we need to find it a class it can win? No.



Sorry, this won't be popular on here but I lost my empathy for the BRZ after too many threads of "I'd rather die than be caught driving a Scion". Let's face it, at the end of the day there are enough FR-S's for every single BRZ owner in the SCCA to easily go trade into one. I have seen people drop $4k on a whim to get new wheels/tires for their BRZ before all of this TRD BS. I think if you can afford that, you can afford to make the nearly straight change from the BRZ to the FRS, IF being competitive at autocross is your top priority. If having the Subaru logo is that important to you, I can't imagine that you are really in the position to complain about the relatively small different between the two.

I run an FR-S, and it's a dedicated autoX car, but a lot of friends have a BRZ because it's simply a nicer car to daily drive and serve as a weekend warrior. The alcantara, heated seats and general fit and finish of the BRZ make it a better daily. I support the move to DS. Personally I think moving the BRZ and non-TRD FR-S makes the most sense (they are identical cars after all) I see the TRD FR-S as similar to the MSR Miata(though obviously the parts and availability are much higher)
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Old 06-21-2016, 02:11 PM   #4232
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Why does every trim of the 86 deserve to be competitive? Why do you want to crap on a second class in order to have more 86's? At least there still are brz's in the mix. The 370z got bumped from cs because of all the 86 qq and now it's basically gone from solo2. and now that there's a better 86, you all want to dump on ds now too?

370z wasn't just beating the twins, it was beating the 350z, the NC Miata and the RX-8 all popular autocross cars. It unbalanced what was a nice competitive class. There's no reason the 370 couldn't be competitive in BS, but there are multiple other affordable, proven cars that are the easy button.

The thing that really killed the 370 in solo was the STR classification that also restricts tire/wheel size to narrower than the stock sport optioned car. NOBODY wants to go into a more prepared class and have to downsize on tire/wheel width.

The difference here is that DS is practically non-existent. Reg numbers have been dwindling locally and the class is practically non-existent at national events, injecting the BRZ and FRS will more than likely give new life to the class, while the ND Miata keeps CS fairly well subscribed.
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Old 06-21-2016, 04:13 PM   #4233
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Personally I think moving the BRZ and non-TRD FR-S makes the most sense (they are identical cars after all) I see the TRD FR-S as similar to the MSR Miata(though obviously the parts and availability are much higher)
I hate seeing this misinformation!! No, the FR-S and BRZ are not identical, as spring rates are different (BRZ has stiffer Front).

MSR comparison is totally non-applicable. MSR was never really produced and very expensive. TRD parts can be had for less than $700 shipped and are actually a port installed option (Yes, there are actual workers at the Port of LA installing these) vs the MSR which was a non-existant trim.

Too many idiots cry conspiracy about the port options, when it are no different than any factory option, but applied to imported vehicles.

Maybe their isnt enough " 'MURICA " to get these idiots to understand?

I mean, does anyone complain about the Corvette Z51 package factory options? No.
Are there separate class for Z51 and non-Z51 Corvettes? No.

By using the same argument of splitting a car by factory line item options (not by trim), should the non-Z51 Corvette now be in C-Street??

If they do this for the twins, why shouldn't we see this for other cars?

People need to wake up and accept the fact that there will not be a proper home for all cars in Street Classes. That is the nature of the class and rules.

If you want parity and equality, go buy a CRX and go STS.
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Old 06-21-2016, 04:25 PM   #4234
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^Pushy brz checking in.

As to those opposing the changes, do you have an alternate suggestion to balance it out? The brz attendance is dismal at best at a lot of national events. I'm still running mine because I'm a noob and there is a lot of driver skill that needs fixing before I can actually compete to stay midpack or close to trophies, but I wouldn't want to run an underdog in a competition if I was better. Driving both the FR-S and BRZ at prosolos, the FR-S felt much better and less pushy. That minimal camber gain, a stiffer rear bar definitely do help.

Write to support allowing TRD for the BRZ if you don't want them moved to DS.

No suggestion to fix it because I don't really think it is a problem. This has been said before, but I think the advantages one twin has over the other falls well within the range of statistical noise. When you have different cars competing in a single class like this there will always be a car or two that float to the top. It is unfortunate, but not everyone's chosen car and trim level is going to be the "lucky" one that turns out to be the fastest. Given the changes coming in the 2017's and a performance package which gives the BRZ an extra half inch of wheel width, there might be a big shift in the "twin to have".
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Old 06-21-2016, 04:49 PM   #4235
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I hate seeing this misinformation!! No, the FR-S and BRZ are not identical, as spring rates are different (BRZ has stiffer Front).
*rolleyes*
I'm sorry, maybe I should have said there a no "meaningful" differences between the two.
As soon as you add an aftermarket shock the spring rate differences are irrelevant and handling can be tuned with shock settings, even if you don't do adjustable shocks, simply adding a bigger front bar on the FR-S or a stiffer rear bar on the BRZ gives it similar handling characteristics as the other.

With the street class allowances a FR-S or BRZ can be made to handle just like the only meaningful difference is the FR-S gets many more sway bar setup options and a stiffer spring and lower ride height and therefore has an advantage over the BRZ.

But if people were really srs bzns they'd have got the FR-S in the first place because it's lighter than the BRZ(which you forgot to mention by the way)
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Old 06-21-2016, 04:54 PM   #4236
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Here's the thing. With the proposal, we only *think* it'll be a fairer/more level place to play. As always with things like this, the proposal is not surgically-limited to just one or two cars. No, they are basically re-doing/taking back a lot of the stock>street switch.

So, now you get to take your chances against a lot of formerly-FS cars. I'm not sure that's going to prove a favorable trade-off.
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Old 06-21-2016, 06:00 PM   #4237
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I stopped trying to AX my BRZ long ago, but I'm curious why you care so much about this. Typically, people that don't have the car don't care, and the people that have the car are the ones challenged to lobby for change. Seems like enough people are asking - why continue this effort to kill the campaign? BTW, I wrote a letter to simply divorce BRZ and FR-S. It is kinda silly to bring the 'non-TRD' FR-S down with the BRZ. They are already unique cars, so it would be easy to treat them as such and split them cleanly.

Besides, all this nonsense about the difference being less than typical driver noise tells me you have not yet felt the power of BRZ understeer
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The move does not impact you, so why get in the way?
Splitting up the classes and introducing unnecessary complexity reduces field sizes and thus competition. I'd rather race midpack in a class of 20 than finish 2nd in a class of 4, seems kind of shitty to assume everyone is just there for a trophy. But maybe I've got the read of it wrong, I certainly don't know much outside my region. This isn't a change that 'improves BRZ competitiveness' imo, it's a change that reduces the size of CS and adds unnecessary complication.

People with BRZ's aren't turning up because they can't win? Bullshit. The people that care that much about winning have already eaten the cost of getting into a more competitive car (like you already have and you're unlikely to return even if the rules change correct?), the % of BRZ owners not showing up is the same as the % of FRS owners who don't show up, they simply aren't interested. People don't run SCCA because it's a quagmire of rules and nitpicky bullshit like this, adding more makes the situation worse, not better.

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As to those opposing the changes, do you have an alternate suggestion to balance it out? The brz attendance is dismal at best at a lot of national events
Yes, assuming it truly is unbalanced, allow an exception for the 86 variants (and only the 86 variants at this time) to share parts. You keep the CS field big and "level out" the playing field. The casuals will remain casuals, the bitchy guys will start complaining about how the '13 FR-S is lighter because they don't have a touchscreen headunit and alacantara and now they want to change that too and we should amend the amenities rules.

YTD, there have been 57408 FRS:27591 BRZ
~2:1

Like above, not many Hyundai's show up, should we make a Hyundai class so they can win? Of course not. BRZ attendance will always lag FRS attendance, basic economics. I looked it up, I could only find 4x Subaru dealers in Nebraska, I'd wager there are <100 BRZ's in the state, is it a wonder none showed up to the Lincoln tour? Meanwhile at a local event a few weeks back the CS class had 4x FRS and 4x BRZ, and btw the top 5 finishing order was ND, BRZ, FRS, FRS, E36 M3 with about 1s covering the difference.

Meanwhile another local club does classes based on a points system, Mini coopers up against M3's up against 1 series convertibles in varying stages of modification, 1st-5th in that class was covered by 0.1s.

Shit, wrote a small essay about a class I'm not competing in.
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Old 06-21-2016, 06:56 PM   #4238
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No suggestion to fix it because I don't really think it is a problem. This has been said before, but I think the advantages one twin has over the other falls well within the range of statistical noise. When you have different cars competing in a single class like this there will always be a car or two that float to the top. It is unfortunate, but not everyone's chosen car and trim level is going to be the "lucky" one that turns out to be the fastest. Given the changes coming in the 2017's and a performance package which gives the BRZ an extra half inch of wheel width, there might be a big shift in the "twin to have".
What are you quantifying this statistical noise by?

Sure, some trims might not be the ones to have to win classes. And now the ND is the car to have in CS, rendering maybe the whole 86 platform useless soon. But, the other cars in CS have a fighting chance in some courses because of some disadvantages the 86 has or some advantages they have. (a course that tops out at 58 may help us and hurt the ND, etc.) But in every course, the FR-S will be better than a BRZ because of constant added benefit.

When other trim levels have been bumped/dropped for other cars, why do you think this trim change is insignificant? Would you be willing to drive a non-TRD FR-S to compete against TRD examples to understand the deficiencies?

The BRZ is a decently popular car and great to introduce people to autocross locally and NATIONALLY(where attendance has taken a hit). What is the flipside of an providing an exception/solution to balance it out and get more attendance at national events?

Personally, I did my first two ProSolos this year, second year autocrossing overall. I drove my brz in the first one and a friend's FR-S in the second one. My position was DFL in both, but I felt I drove much better in the FR-S and had better position by raw times and actually got the car to rotate instead of pushing like a motherf***er like my brz does. F**K the springs, all I want is the rear bar for now.

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Yes, assuming it truly is unbalanced, allow an exception for the 86 variants (and only the 86 variants at this time) to share parts. You keep the CS field big and "level out" the playing field. The casuals will remain casuals, the bitchy guys will start complaining about how the '13 FR-S is lighter because they don't have a touchscreen headunit and alacantara and now they want to change that too and we should amend the amenities rules.

YTD, there have been 57408 FRS:27591 BRZ
~2:1

Like above, not many Hyundai's show up, should we make a Hyundai class so they can win? Of course not. BRZ attendance will always lag FRS attendance, basic economics. I looked it up, I could only find 4x Subaru dealers in Nebraska, I'd wager there are <100 BRZ's in the state, is it a wonder none showed up to the Lincoln tour? Meanwhile at a local event a few weeks back the CS class had 4x FRS and 4x BRZ, and btw the top 5 finishing order was ND, BRZ, FRS, FRS, E36 M3 with about 1s covering the difference.

Meanwhile another local club does classes based on a points system, Mini coopers up against M3's up against 1 series convertibles in varying stages of modification, 1st-5th in that class was covered by 0.1s.

Shit, wrote a small essay about a class I'm not competing in.
At the Lincoln Champ tour,

1 car from Nebraska showed up - it was a '16 miata.

the distribution was - 10 FR-S, 6 Miatas(NC&ND), 1 M3, 2 350z, 1 rx-8 and 2 unmentioned

How many BRZs? NONE!
So, 0/22 were brz, 10/22 were fr-s
last year, 2/21 were brz, 9/21 were fr-s
the year before that, 4/16 were BRZ and 3/16 were fr-s

see the pattern? one has been in decline while the other has been in an increase(however small). I picked an event YOU mentioned and showed the trend.

The rate of change isn't even correlated to the 2:1 ratio of sales you mention. It's NOT EVEN CLOSE.

local events WILL have BRZs coming out, because they're convenient. But will the same people make a trip out driving 5-11 hours and staying at a hotel just because they can compete with a weaker car? Probably not.

All I'm saying is that small exception will bring in a lot more participation to the class. If this is not the way SCCA works, pardon me, I'm new.

I don't think anyone's complaining about the heavier car, they're merely stating the exception would not accidentally tip the scales in favor of the BRZ and to keep their tin foil hats back where they came from.


EDIT : I'm not srsbznz enough YET to really worry about the classing. I'll work on improving my driving till it becomes less of a factor for me not being competitive vs. the mods. Would I attend more national events with the brz? Probably not, unless it's close like Toledo! I can get my taste of national competition by having my ass kicked by Sean and Oscar regularly.
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Old 06-21-2016, 07:23 PM   #4239
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see the pattern? one has been in decline while the other has been in an increase(however small). I picked an event YOU mentioned and showed the trend.

The rate of change isn't even correlated to the 2:1 ratio of sales you mention. It's NOT EVEN CLOSE.

But will the same people make a trip out driving 5-11 hours and staying at a hotel just because they can compete with a weaker car? Probably not.
Well yeah, that's why I wondered how many BRZ's are actually driving around America's heartland. You can blame the low turnout on the ruleset just as I can blame it on the fact that if only 1% of 86's go competitively autocrossing, 1,000 FRS = 10x autocrossing, 100 BRZ = 1x autocrossing.

2015 Nationals in Lincoln CS:
24 FRS
11 BRZ

The difference was well known by then, and yet they showed up in reasonable numbers. Will fewer show up this year? Time will tell, your biggest ammo is that there currently aren't any BRZ's registered for this year's nationals.

If the ND trounces the FRS this year will that mean no FRS show up next year and we should reclass that too?

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All I'm saying is that small exception will bring in a lot more participation to the class. If this is not the way SCCA works, pardon me, I'm new.

EDIT : I'm not srsbznz enough YET to really worry about the classing. I'll work on improving my driving till it becomes less of a factor for me not being competitive vs. the mods. Would I attend more national events with the brz? Probably not, unless it's close like Toledo! I can get my taste of national competition by having my ass kicked by Sean and Oscar regularly.
A lot more participation? By your own evidence a grand total of 4 cars stopped showing up to Lincoln for the big tour, you'd get 4 cars showing up in DS at the absolute best case scenario via reclassing and they'd show up at CS instead if they could use the TRD parts.

I'll leave it at this: Based on past experiences, I am strongly against unnecessary class shuffling, complexity, and small classes, because it leads to less people competing with each other resulting lower turnout.

I completely agree with your edit and imo it is the truth for the vast majority of BRZ owners who are interested in autocross: the hypothetical 0.X second difference between the two cars is not what stops them from showing up to more events.

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Old 06-21-2016, 07:35 PM   #4240
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A lot more participation? By your own evidence a grand total of 4 cars stopped showing up to Lincoln for the big tour, you'd get 4 cars showing up in DS at the absolute best case scenario via reclassing and they'd show up at CS instead if they could use the TRD parts.
Well, the 4 cars could grow with whatever rate the fr-s grew over those 2 years, but yeah, I want to know what Ogburn, Grogan, the Potockis, Oscar, Alan and other really good fr-s drivers would've done if they'd have got the brz when they bought the car. They're good enough nationally for the TRD allowances to make an impact.

Would they just bite the bullet and trade cars? Would they write to SCCA for allowances? or class changes?

I know it's hypothetical, but what would you do? Just trying to get perspective.

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Old 06-21-2016, 08:21 PM   #4241
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I'm really starting to wonder how much of this lack of BRZ attendance is due to the hooting and hollering on this forum versus the actual performance of the car at events. If I had a BRZ and hadn't autocrossed it before I sure as hell wouldn't come out if I had all these people telling me I'd lose to every FR-S because they have an advantage I'll never be able to match.

Everyone tells me that I can't beat a turbo MR-2 at a pro because they gain so much time on the launch but I still go to them. Maybe I should stop attending pros in CS now because I can't launch as fast as the other cars. You know what... I'm going to write a letter to the board asking that the FR-S be re-classed for Pros because it's not competitive. Of course, I'll wait until they move the BRZ first so that they then have to move the BRZ a second time when they complain about the FR-S getting moved back in with them.


Seriously though. How about someone out there go and get an auto-x course setup, get a fully prepped CS BRZ and CS FR-S, get the same damn driver, and have them drive the course 10 times each (alternating between runs) with each car? Let's compare the data and see what the difference really is. Also don't forget to let the driver run the course 3 times with a completely different car prior to that so we can rule out course knowledge bias as well.
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Old 06-21-2016, 08:38 PM   #4242
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I want to know what Ogburn, Grogan, the Potockis, Oscar, Alan and other really good fr-s drivers would've done if they'd have got the brz when they bought the car. They're good enough nationally for the TRD allowances to make an impact.

I know it's hypothetical, but what would you do? Just trying to get perspective.

to you too!!
I'd keep competing in the BRZ (although I would not have bought it even if that was the plan because of the weight difference, google it: 6 lbs on the '15), I bet all those quick guys bought on that information alone. They just got lucky with the TRD springs coming out, it could have easily been that Scion would not sell TRD parts or since TRD parts are 'Toyota' and not 'Scion' they're disallowed meanwhile the STI springs came out giving the BRZ an edge.

If I truly felt that the TRD springs and sways created an unfair advantage between the two cars (probably by doing what @Locust suggests with a competitor if I could find a buddy and swapping cars at a casual event) I'd probably run the TRD parts locally with a gentleman's agreement with my competitors and write a letter with the suggestion I mentioned: let the BRZ use the same parts as the FRS. Everywhere I've looked CS fields are bigger and tighter in competition than DS, I'd want to stay in CS.



Edit: Again, assuming I felt the BRZ was truly disadvantaged and my goal was really to win Nationals in my own car, I'd sell the car. Realistically I'd be waiting on tenterhooks for the ruling or finding someone with an FRS and an open co-driver's seat.
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