Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[Summerwolf]

You should still probably buy a civic......

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by motrek

Also, the stock BRZ felt faster driving around town. I checked some message boards and it seems like the TRD exhaust might have moved the torque curve towards the upper rev range, so that's why the car felt ridiculously slow (and LOUD) when accelerating during regular street driving in the 2000-3000 range.

Just note that some dealers put regular in the tank to save money (esp. Toyota cause they know nothing about performance cars, as opposed to Subaru) and the sales guy told me to put regular in it even though it says to use at least 91 on the fuel cap and quite clearly tells you in the manual never use anything below 91.

[WolfpackS2k]

The Civic is FWD and ugly as sin. And has a low revving engine. All of that sucks.

Seriously, I don't understand how someone that thinks the car is ugly would STILL consider one.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by motrek

Okay so I had a couple hours free yesterday and managed to get to the nearby Subaru dealership and test-drove a stock BRZ. Words can't even begin to describe the difference between the stock BRZ and the 86 with the TRD exhaust and suspension.

With the TRD exhaust, the cabin is literally too loud to have a conversation when accelerating, you have to yell. I feel like a long road trip might have resulted in permanent hearing loss. With the stock BRZ, the cabin was as quiet as any other lightweight car I've been in, maybe a little quieter, and I didn't even bother to plug the hole in the footwell.

With the TRD suspension, the car felt like it was going to shake itself to pieces driving along on smooth highway. With the stock suspension, the ride was as smooth as my BMW 3-series with the sport suspension option. Extremely comfortable. Very pleasant.

Also, the stock BRZ felt faster driving around town. I checked some message boards and it seems like the TRD exhaust might have moved the torque curve towards the upper rev range, so that's why the car felt ridiculously slow (and LOUD) when accelerating during regular street driving in the 2000-3000 range.

I'm now 100% sure that I will be buying an 86/BRZ as my next car, probably in about 4-6 months, since that's when I'll need to put new brakes and tires on my current car. I can hardly wait. Really looking forward to it.

So, thanks to everybody who answered my questions on this forum thoughtfully and honestly. And no thanks to the people who basically told me to eff off and buy the Civic because I don't "get it." That was not helpful.

Yup I forgot to mention the TRD exhaust is pretty loud. It doesn't really change anything about your power curve at all, but it can have a negative psychological effect of making your car feel slower due to greater auditory feedback. I.E. "I'm pressing on the gas at 3000 rpm and it's making a lot of noise but not going anywhere".

Also I will re-iterate, now that you're set on buying an 86 (congrats!), that there are a couple of key mods that will make a great difference in the car. Drive it as it is for now - get used to it, but consider the following mods:

Quality headers - research here, lots of options, find a good used set for cheap on here. Leave the rest of your exhaust stock, change muffler later if you want more noise (I personally like the Greddy mufflers).

Good tires - You can even keep your stock rims, but put real summer performance tires on (for warm weather at least). Also add camber bolts up front and have an alignment shop align your car with them maxed out.

Tune - budget approach is OFT with the out-of-the-box tunes. They work great.

The above mods really wake up the car from a power and handling perspective.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Just note that some dealers put regular in the tank to save money (esp. Toyota cause they know nothing about performance cars, as opposed to Subaru) and the sales guy told me to put regular in it even though it says to use at least 91 on the fuel cap and quite clearly tells you in the manual never use anything below 91.

Interesting thought. I know that some cars will gradually pull back timing and lose very little performance when you switch between octanes. And some cars will immediately pull timing WAY back when they sense any knock and become 1.5-2 seconds slower 0-60 and it takes like 2 tanks of gas (or an ECU reset) to restore performance. Maybe the 86/BRZ belongs to the latter camp.

In any case, the BRZ felt usefully peppy in around-town driving. Not fast in an absolute sense but also not painfully slow like the 86 did. I was very satisfied with the performance.

It's mind-boggling to me that the Toyota dealership's demo car would have these TRD "upgrades" and possibly low-octane gas. I can't imagine how many people test-drive that POS and come away supremely disappointed, as I did.

[SuperTom]

Weight Distribution (front/rear)

61.4% / 38.6%

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by motrek

Okay so I had a couple hours free yesterday and managed to get to the nearby Subaru dealership and test-drove a stock BRZ. Words can't even begin to describe the difference between the stock BRZ and the 86 with the TRD exhaust and suspension.

With the TRD exhaust, the cabin is literally too loud to have a conversation when accelerating, you have to yell. I feel like a long road trip might have resulted in permanent hearing loss. With the stock BRZ, the cabin was as quiet as any other lightweight car I've been in, maybe a little quieter, and I didn't even bother to plug the hole in the footwell.

With the TRD suspension, the car felt like it was going to shake itself to pieces driving along on smooth highway. With the stock suspension, the ride was as smooth as my BMW 3-series with the sport suspension option. Extremely comfortable. Very pleasant.

Also, the stock BRZ felt faster driving around town. I checked some message boards and it seems like the TRD exhaust might have moved the torque curve towards the upper rev range, so that's why the car felt ridiculously slow (and LOUD) when accelerating during regular street driving in the 2000-3000 range.

I'm now 100% sure that I will be buying an 86/BRZ as my next car, probably in about 4-6 months, since that's when I'll need to put new brakes and tires on my current car. I can hardly wait. Really looking forward to it.

I'm glad you had a more positive experience with a stock car. Go ahead and buy it if you like it and think it will make you happy.

So, thanks to everybody who answered my questions on this forum thoughtfully and honestly. And no thanks to the people who basically told me to eff off and buy the Civic because I don't "get it." That was not helpful.

I answered your question honestly, and my honest answer, based on what you said in this thread, was to buy the Civic because I think you don't get it.

Everything you said about your wants/needs and general attitude towards cars in general suggested to me (and plenty of others) that the 86 wasn't right for you. Telling you that you just don't get it is a perfectly reasonable response to your previous posts. Everyone who told you to "eff off and buy the Civic" was trying to be help you by discouraging you from buying a car that wasn't going to make you happy. I'm happy to be wrong about that, I guess. The more 86 fans there are, the better. But just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean they aren't trying to help.

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by motrek

Interesting thought. I know that some cars will gradually pull back timing and lose very little performance when you switch between octanes. And some cars will immediately pull timing WAY back when they sense any knock and become 1.5-2 seconds slower 0-60 and it takes like 2 tanks of gas (or an ECU reset) to restore performance. Maybe the 86/BRZ belongs to the latter camp.

In any case, the BRZ felt usefully peppy in around-town driving. Not fast in an absolute sense but also not painfully slow like the 86 did. I was very satisfied with the performance.

It's mind-boggling to me that the Toyota dealership's demo car would have these TRD "upgrades" and possibly low-octane gas. I can't imagine how many people test-drive that POS and come away supremely disappointed, as I did.

I really doubt it was a low-octane fuel issue that made the car feel slower to you. I honestly think, like bfrank said, the louder setup made you think you should be going faster than you were, so the car felt slow. As for the suspension, obviously the TRD setup is going to be way stiffer.

But those TRD parts are marketed to people who do autoX and track their cars, where stiffness and loudness aren't really negatives in any way that matters. TRD is a race-style brand of parts. Not really a huge surprise that they make the car feel more like a racecar (for better or for worse).

[motrek]

Originally Posted by qcbaker

I really doubt it was a low-octane fuel issue that made the car feel slower to you. I honestly think, like bfrank said, the louder setup made you think you should be going faster than you were, so the car felt slow. As for the suspension, obviously the TRD setup is going to be way stiffer.

But those TRD parts are marketed to people who do autoX and track their cars, where stiffness and loudness aren't really negatives in any way that matters. TRD is a race-style brand of parts. Not really a huge surprise that they make the car feel more like a racecar (for better or for worse).

Yes, there's clearly a market for that stuff. But I wonder how many people walk into the dealership wanting that sort of aftermarket experience. Doesn't seem like it could be that high of a percentage to me.

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by motrek

Yes, there's clearly a market for that stuff. But I wonder how many people walk into the dealership wanting that sort of aftermarket experience. Doesn't seem like it could be that high of a percentage to me.

No idea what the percentages would be, but there are plenty of people who buy an 86 because they want a cheap car that looks and feels like a racecar. Makes sense for a dealer to have that available in case that customer walks in.

Obviously, the dealer probably should have made it more clear that the TRD setup is much harsher than stock. Maybe the salesperson isn't that familiar with these cars and didn't realize.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by motrek

Okay so I had a couple hours free yesterday and managed to get to the nearby Subaru dealership and test-drove a stock BRZ. Words can't even begin to describe the difference between the stock BRZ and the 86 with the TRD exhaust and suspension.

With the TRD exhaust, the cabin is literally too loud to have a conversation when accelerating, you have to yell. I feel like a long road trip might have resulted in permanent hearing loss. With the stock BRZ, the cabin was as quiet as any other lightweight car I've been in, maybe a little quieter, and I didn't even bother to plug the hole in the footwell.

With the TRD suspension, the car felt like it was going to shake itself to pieces driving along on smooth highway. With the stock suspension, the ride was as smooth as my BMW 3-series with the sport suspension option. Extremely comfortable. Very pleasant.

Also, the stock BRZ felt faster driving around town. I checked some message boards and it seems like the TRD exhaust might have moved the torque curve towards the upper rev range, so that's why the car felt ridiculously slow (and LOUD) when accelerating during regular street driving in the 2000-3000 range.

I'm now 100% sure that I will be buying an 86/BRZ as my next car, probably in about 4-6 months, since that's when I'll need to put new brakes and tires on my current car. I can hardly wait. Really looking forward to it.

So, thanks to everybody who answered my questions on this forum thoughtfully and honestly. And no thanks to the people who basically told me to eff off and buy the Civic because I don't "get it." That was not helpful.

The brz and 86 are the exact same in all aspects performance related. Slight styling difference, brz is slightly more “luxurious” but also more $$ and they have a little different levels of trim packages. Really you are buying a Toyota badge or Subaru badge. Not sure why you wouldn’t test a bone stock 86? TRD packages like other said is tailored to autox and nothing special about it.

Personally I would buy bone stock, unless you want to pay extra for heated seat/climate control type stuff. But save your money on anything “performance” related and go aftermarket. You will get more bang for buck and save more money in the long run. I see a lot of people spend extra money on top packages only to replace full exhaust, rims, brakes, suspension etc anyways.

[accwai]

Originally Posted by qcbaker

I really doubt it was a low-octane fuel issue that made the car feel slower to you. I honestly think, like bfrank said, the louder setup made you think you should be going faster than you were, so the car felt slow. As for the suspension, obviously the TRD setup is going to be way stiffer.

That's hard to believe. I paid for TRD springs and sway bars for my car but they completely forgot to install the stuff on delivery. A month later, an acquaintance tried to push some of his spare TRD parts on me. I said "But I *have* TRD suspension." He said "No you *don't*." So back to the dealer and they say "Parts are in stock, give us a few hours." I was expecting the TRD suspension to be stiffer but that doesn't seem to be the case. If anything, it seems to track surface irregularities more precisely with very little "aftershock". For me, it's a little hard translate what I experience to "shake itself to pieces". If somebody else who's driven stock vs TRD suspension on the same car have different experience, please come forward and share.

As for TRD exhaust, I've always had it. My dad wanted to try out a stock automatic BRZ and asked me to tag along. I don't understand what the big deal with noise level is. And in the bigger scheme of things, TRD is quite far from being the loudest. There is a white BRZ around where I live that is seriously loud. And it cracks like crazy when backing off on the gas. Also, I was once at a traffic light. Another 86 (same color) pulled up right behind and started rev'ing like hell. As we got started on green, I could hear the guy loud and clear from back there. From the outside, the guy got to be way loud. Highly doubtful he's TRD exhaust.

Now about hearing loss, I have bone structure misalignment in the middle ear on one side so I'm half deaf. But I'm perfectly functional if the battery on the hearing aid goes flat when I'm outside. A little loss of hearing won't kill you

By the way, around here I've also met all kind of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Nissan GT-R, Fiat 500 Abarth that's loud as hell. Can't stand the noise, get a BMW i8 eh.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

The brz and 86 are the exact same in all aspects performance related. Slight styling difference, brz is slightly more “luxurious” but also more $$ and they have a little different levels of trim packages. Really you are buying a Toyota badge or Subaru badge. Not sure why you wouldn’t test a bone stock 86? TRD packages like other said is tailored to autox and nothing special about it. ...

I just went to the Toyota dealership and asked to test drive an 86. That's what the salesman gave me to test drive--an 86 with TRD exhaust and suspension. It's definitely not what I wanted to test drive but that's what they had.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by accwai

That's hard to believe. I paid for TRD springs and sway bars for my car but they completely forgot to install the stuff on delivery. A month later, an acquaintance tried to push some of his spare TRD parts on me. I said "But I *have* TRD suspension." He said "No you *don't*." So back to the dealer and they say "Parts are in stock, give us a few hours." I was expecting the TRD suspension to be stiffer but that doesn't seem to be the case. If anything, it seems to track surface irregularities more precisely with very little "aftershock". For me, it's a little hard translate what I experience to "shake itself to pieces". If somebody else who's driven stock vs TRD suspension on the same car have different experience, please come forward and share.

Dunno, like I said, there was a night-and-day difference between the 86 I drove and the BRZ. The salesman told me the 86 had TRD exhaust and suspension. Maybe it had other mods too, not sure.

... By the way, around here I've also met all kind of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Nissan GT-R, Fiat 500 Abarth that's loud as hell. Can't stand the noise, get a BMW i8 eh.

Different strokes for different folks. For me, the interesting part about fast cars is how fast they are, e.g., how fast they can get around a track. Not how loud or uncomfortable they are. If you can get around a track just as fast in a car that's quiet and comfortable, why wouldn't you want to? I know there are a lot of people out there who apparently want a "racecar experience" (for lack of a better phrase) and prefer having a loud and uncomfortable car. Personally I think that's ridiculous but I'm sure there are things that I like that other people think are ridiculous.