Baby NSX / Honda S2000 Successor

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Miata. Oh wait, the 240Z had a hatch, there goes the dedicated part with all that storage space adding unnecessary weight.

???
A dedicated coupe doesn't have a weight penalty vs. a dedicated open roadster. Additional sheetmetal acreage is usually more than offset by more efficient structure. In practice, cars designed primarily as roadsters don't gain much if any weight and sometimes lose weight with the "coupe" version, while cars designed as coupes always gain significant weight in the "roadster" version.


Anyway, I would consider a ~200hp dedicated fixed-roof coupe Miata to be a modern 240Z equivalent. And I'd buy a 155hp fixed-roof coupe MX-5 if they build it...

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Some people, not many. How many 50k Toyotas or Fords do you see on the road?

They are not common, but it's not rare around here either. It doesn't take much to option a Avalon or Sequoia to 50k. It's not unusual to spot a gt500 or boss 302 around here either. Hell, even Kia has a car that starts out at 50k these days.

The Cayman S and Boxster S have a starting price of 63k. It wouldn't be hard for Honda to swoop in on some of Porsche's sales.

[Sideways&Smiling]

S2000: $35k in 2000 = $48k in 2015...

$55k seems pretty reasonable to me for a mid-engined, turbocharged 300-400hp S2000 successor in 2017/2018 money.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

S2000: $35k in 2000 = $48k in 2015...

$55k seems pretty reasonable to me for a mid-engined, turbocharged 300-400hp S2000 successor in 2017/2018 money.

Well, the engine has to be S2000 good to justify it even remotely. The FR layout of the S2k probably cost Honda more money than making MR2s did Toyota, because MR2s just used FWD transaxles and put them in the back, but Honda has no RWD cars.

The F20C justified the cost for the S2000. I don't think a 300hp turbo would cut it at that price, because any hot hatch these days has an engine like that, unless the 2300lbs number is serious (which I would be skeptical of if it really had 300hp, because that would add ~100lbs over any 4 cylinder drivetrain around right now). 2300lbs and 200hp from a spiced up R18 engine sounds very doable, but they could never charge 50k for that combo unless there was a lot of carbon fiber, or if the 9000rpm rev limit came back.

[Packofcrows]

Originally Posted by Andrew025

I would take the Honda... But I'm not spending that much on a car anytime soon.
I'm also not the typical Porsche buyer.

Not a overall Porsche enthusiast, or just certain models? What about Steve McQueen’s 1970 Porsche 911S?

Personally, I'd take a 1971-1985 911. Others (new models, presently) with the extended rear 2+2 are horrid looking. Like a skinny girl with 3 tons of boottie.

Honda...the name just doesn't match sportiness anymore. I couldn't take a new sports car from Honda seriously nowadays.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Well, the engine has to be S2000 good to justify it even remotely. The FR layout of the S2k probably cost Honda more money than making MR2s did Toyota, because MR2s just used FWD transaxles and put them in the back, but Honda has no RWD cars.

The F20C justified the cost for the S2000. I don't think a 300hp turbo would cut it at that price, because any hot hatch these days has an engine like that, unless the 2300lbs number is serious (which I would be skeptical of if it really had 300hp, because that would add ~100lbs over any 4 cylinder drivetrain around right now). 2300lbs and 200hp from a spiced up R18 engine sounds very doable, but they could never charge 50k for that combo unless there was a lot of carbon fiber, or if the 9000rpm rev limit came back.

Eh, a base model Porsche Cayman is what..... like $52k right now in 2015? and only makes like 275hp?

I'm not really sure why you bring up them not having a RWD platform. It will be just like the S2000... purpose built. (Although this time, it looks like there may be some sort of sharing between the NSX/S660 platforms..... like a modular platform of sorts...)

I also don't really get you saying "because it would add ~100lbs over any 4 cylinder drivetrain around right now".... huh? How do you figure? Also, it didn't say anything about the baby-NSX being 2300 pounds. It said that about the lightweight Miata fighter.

I expect the S2K successor/baby NSX will be 2700-3000 pounds... but being mid-engine will give it a healthy advantage over most of the competition (Supra, Corvette, etc.), and if it has suspension design as serious as the original NSX/S2000, it will have better engineering & handling than any Cayman short of the GT4 (which is way more $$$).

Of course, this is all speculation, and Honda now may not be the Honda of the the NSX/S2K eras, but they are involved in F1 again now and seem to be taking the development of these new sports cars and engines very seriously. I would not underestimate them.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Packofcrows

Honda...the name just doesn't match sportiness anymore. I couldn't take a new sports car from Honda seriously nowadays.

A lot of people felt that way about Toyota when they announced the GT86.... Hell, a lot of people still feel that way about Toyota now. haha.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Packofcrows

Personally, I'd take a 1971-1985 911. Others (new models, presently) with the extended rear 2+2 are horrid looking. Like a skinny girl with 3 tons of boottie.

Wha? 911 was always a 2+2. They extended the wheelbase in 1969, I don't think there's any visual difference between a 1985 and 1986. Personally, I would go for a 1987-1989 5-speed...

The current model is oversized, though. 997 looks great, 991 looks unbelievably fat in comparison.

Honda...the name just doesn't match sportiness anymore. I couldn't take a new sports car from Honda seriously nowadays.

I don't understand this mentality. If a serious sports car comes from whatever nameplate, I'm in. If the car kicks ass, I don't care what the nameplate is.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

S2000: $35k in 2000 = $48k in 2015...

$55k seems pretty reasonable to me for a mid-engined, turbocharged 300-400hp S2000 successor in 2017/2018 money.

I agree with much of what you're saying in this thread and at $45-48k I would be interested, but at $55k it would hard for me justify the purchase over a C7 corvette stingray even if the S2000 was mid-engined. Just seems about $10k overpriced to me but a test drive might change my mind.


At least $10k of the Cayman's price is just because of the badge and I don't think Acura/Honda can pull that same trick off.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

I agree with much of what you're saying in this thread and at $45-48k I would be interested, but at $55k it would hard for me justify the purchase over a C7 corvette stingray even if the S2000 was mid-engined. Just seems about $10k overpriced to me but a test drive might change my mind.


At least $10k of the Cayman's price is just because of the badge and I don't think Acura/Honda can pull that same trick off.

Yeah, I mean, I most likely will be driving a modded, forced induction S2000 or some other older used car when this thing comes out instead of buying any new car lol but it's nice to dream and I'm very interested in it based on the description so far.

I think it would come down to power-to-weight ratio and the mid-engine factor for deciding whether it was a better value than the C7... but then a used C7 will probably be available for a pretty good price in a few years...

Regardless, I'm just excited to see new serious sports cars from Japanese manufacturers, period. I hope Mazda and Nissan hurry up and join the party.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Eh, a base model Porsche Cayman is what..... like $52k right now in 2015? and only makes like 275hp?

I'm not really sure why you bring up them not having a RWD platform. It will be just like the S2000... purpose built. (Although this time, it looks like there may be some sort of sharing between the NSX/S660 platforms..... like a modular platform of sorts...)

I also don't really get you saying "because it would add ~100lbs over any 4 cylinder drivetrain around right now".... huh? How do you figure? Also, it didn't say anything about the baby-NSX being 2300 pounds. It said that about the lightweight Miata fighter.

I expect the S2K successor/baby NSX will be 2700-3000 pounds... but being mid-engine will give it a healthy advantage over most of the competition (Supra, Corvette, etc.), and if it has suspension design as serious as the original NSX/S2000, it will have better engineering & handling than any Cayman short of the GT4 (which is way more $$$).

Not about the horsepower, it's about the...aesthetic quality of the engine. The Porsche engine might not make that much power but it sounds better than every car in the price range.

Similarly, the S2000 revs to 9000rpm despite making a measly 240hp (which wasn't a lot even 15 years ago), which justifies its cost.

What I'm saying is that the S2000 was a one off platform, which factored into its cost. A MR successor would probably cost less if anything because they can recycle a lot of FWD drivetrain parts whereas they couldn't do that on the S2000, since there were no other RWD cars back then.

100lbs was saying, you can't build a 2300lb car with a turbo 2L engine in it. A turbo 2L plus the heavier duty transmission, drive axles, and brakes needed would be minimum 100lbs more than say a K24 + 6 speed. I'm saying you can however do a souped up R18 Civic drivetrain and make a 2300lb barebones car with that, which I'd be super happy with.

[Packofcrows]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Wha? 911 was always a 2+2. They extended the wheelbase in 1969, I don't think there's any visual difference between a 1985 and 1986. Personally, I would go for a 1987-1989 5-speed...

The current model is oversized, though. 997 looks great, 991 looks unbelievably fat in comparison.


I don't understand this mentality. If a serious sports car comes from whatever nameplate, I'm in. If the car kicks ass, I don't care what the nameplate is.

I meant the newer porsche has a wider fat rear look, if you will. Old did as well, but didnt look AS deformed. Old porsches look sexier.

On the Honda quote, im so used to seeing civics and accords that even if they made a type r super sports car, it would still look uninviting, to me. I would give it a 2 second glimpse and that would be it. Its like running into Integras. I just see a car with people inside. Honda has been out of the sports league for too long. Si's are no longer seen and respected here like they were 10? Years ago. I dont trust them to motivate me like the ft86 did.

Toyota is heading that way, perhaps if theres a company, Nissan is the only one staying in the game. ie 350z, 370z, 240sx, 300z, gtr...etc

Ford is also like Honda. Mustang has been on a decline from muscle to mpg grocery grabber to your grandma's ride to bingo night. With their new turbo hatchback (name? Fiesta???) Its still a ford focus to me aka in my eyes as a hatch corolla.

Hope it clears it up somewhat.

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

A lot of people felt that way about Toyota when they announced the GT86.... Hell, a lot of people still feel that way about Toyota now. haha.

Hi.


Yep agreed. Its (the twins) a sluggish ride compared to other cars. But, we have a forum full of those issues.

Re: my Honda views,

I might not have a big love for Honda, but still, i never said a new Honda could never change my mind. Never know. It might eventually. The S2k nearly did, and the crz definitely did...until i test drove one.

Unfortunately, as it stands, the relationship between that whore Honda and me has gone on a sharp decline.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Similarly, the S2000 revs to 9000rpm despite making a measly 240hp (which wasn't a lot even 15 years ago), which justifies its cost.

You don't think 240hp out of a NA 4 cylinder is impressive?

Suddenly, your opinion is discarded.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

You don't think 240hp out of a NA 4 cylinder is impressive?

Suddenly, your opinion is discarded.

What? The person I quoted said 275hp is not a lot in the cayman, all I'm saying is by extension 240hp isn't either. The whole point is its not about how many horsepower...did you even read the rest of my post?

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