Where's the white man comedian doing a set on black people?

[Superhatch]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

You're operating on the assumption that everyone starts off on a level playing field and are either equally accepted or equally marginalized.

I don't think that at all. I understand many things about the injustice and ill proportion that race, class, sex and creed can level upon an individual. I've spent a lot of time championing against those injustices in many different ways.

My point is that I'm not proud to be white, nor should I be. The color of my skin, or my heterosexuality, or the size of my shoes are things I have no control over, and thus being prideful of them to me just leads to exclusion between groups.

My point is that undue pride, the idea of celebrating a thing we are, which we do not control, can and has led to some of the greatest injustices of our time. I'm not a fan of it regardless of the form.

[Superhatch]

I'll note that I do understand your point, I just don't think pride is the right way people should label their love of their kind, regardless of kind. The ability of people to express their individualism -should- be equal, and when people of a certain group are excluded from the norms of society I think they should speak louder so that people can still hear them.

I've seen strong pride grow from many different people within different groups, some marginalized, some privileged. That pride is something that I don't like regardless of station. I started the debate based on the definition of the word, because I think that most clearly makes my point. Being pedantic is something I've never been accused of before, and I don't mean to imply that there aren't ways to bend the way the word pride is applied to the feeling of love and connection one has to the group they most closely identify with. I'm trying to say that pride is something I've seen used to separate more often than used to inspire. I don't think it best defines the feeling that the groups we are talking about have for one another, or their membership in that group which they have no choice but to join.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

Did I ever say racism was over? No. I said that we've made progress. Do you think it was REMOTELY possible for a "half black man" to even be considered for any political position, let alone President??? Come on, stop arguing against everything I say simply for the sake of arguing.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when it came to posting that chain letter, but you ended up parroting those points back at me as if somehow, a screed from a white supremacist would somehow be different if it came from someone from you? Sorry, but you're just about ready to say that if one black person can be president, then ANYONE can be president. I'm just beating you to the punch.

This is also a ridiculous statement to make considering that my state governor is black.

Poking holes in arguments is exactly what happens in a debate.

I am only pointing out that anything like this is racist in one form or another because it promotes exclusivity. I hear what you're saying about white conventions, and of course it's true, but saying "well if you do it then we're gonna do it too" doesn't fix a damn thing, it just breeds more bitterness. We're never going to get past racial issues if we keep treating people differently, and I believe changing how these things are talked about is a big part of it. This country still has some growing up to do, but if laws are placed that force business to hire people of a specific race, how is that not JUST as racist as a business owner only hiring white people?

It's not because your sense of scale is completely out of whack. Whites have been enjoying preference for centuries and I don't think that 30 years of a half-assed attempt at trying to make up for it makes a huge dent in the median socio-economic outcomes of white Americans. It's statistically insignificant. But for black folks, it has a huge impact due to increased access alone. Doing nothing will only ensure that inequities will remain.

A vast majority of the institutions that have eliminated affirmative action efforts have led to decreased enrollment and employment of people of color. The only exception that I can think of at the moment is UC Berkeley with increased Asian enrollment. I hope you can resist the urge to roll out the Model Minority Myth. When it comes to the history of racism, I don't deal in opinions.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why does "Equal Opportunity Employer" need to be advertised? This should be the status quo, not an advertisement.

Of course it should, but it isn't nor do you address my point about hiring preferences or Driving While Black.

I'm not losing you, you're simply refusing to understand anything beyond your own opinions. You're so hellbent on proving that white people are the problem that you're refusing to see any other perspective.

I understand your types of opinions perfectly fine and understand them better than you do because I know where they come from, who they benefit, who they harm, how they persist, and why they persist. Like I said, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but then you decided to go whole hog and throw in your lot with the racist chain letter.

White men built the systems and institutions that put them on top of the socio-economic hierarchy. This is not an opinion, but a statement of fact. Hell, it wasn't even until 1920 that white women were allowed to vote. This is also a fact. Whites in the past have been stacking the deck for whites in the future for centuries. Less stacking of the deck doesn't mean there's NO stacking of the deck. If anything, the deck is being stacked smarter, hence the Atwater quote.

I'm not saying that ALL white people are to blame, but they all certainly benefit from it compared to their non-white socio-economic peers.

Oh and you're right, blacks aren't represented in the media at all. the Cosby Show, Tyler Perry, a bajillion other TV shows and rap artists, professional athletes, comedians... Yeah media representation of black people is in an appalling state in the US.

It is...unless you think that certain sports, sitcoms, and a specific genre of music is somehow diverse and representative. Most reasonable people would agree that it isn't. Hootie and the Blowfish is an exception to the rule...an outlier. We can go through the primetime weekly line-up of the major broadcast networks to see how much diversity there is, if you want.

I agree. Changing our behavior and beliefs is how it's going to be minimized, but we simply disagree how best to accomplish that. You're oversimplifying and arguing every damn point I'm trying to make and I feel like I'm talking to an angry wall.

Then make better points?

Why's it my fault that you make them so easy to refute? Look, I'm no expert on racism(I know a few people that actually are), but I'm VERY knowledgeable on the subject. Just sayin

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by Dustin

I don't think much of what I posted could be said is fact. I simply gave my opinions on the subject at hand. I do like though how you quote some of the things I say in response to what you said and then respond to them out of context from your original post. For example, you said



to which I responded

I have friends of many diverse backgrounds. If I had my own prejudices I think it would be a more select group. My own children are of mixed races.

Your response after that.



So you say I have prejudices. I reply that I have many friends of diverse backgrounds and mixed race children. You say having a black friend doesn't make me an expert and neither does having multi-racial children. Never once did I say I was an expert or an authority on the matter. I only responded appropriately to your statement about me having prejudices only to have you twist it into something else.

We're both giving our opinions on this. I have yet to see many facts that aren't already widely known. Agree to disagree then. You win.

Out of context, you say? You must have forgotten about this nice little blurb about people being offended by being called a slur:

Originally Posted by Dustin

They're just words. People get too offended from them. Maybe they're insecure about their own inner racism.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Out of context, you say? You must have forgotten about this nice little blurb about people being offended by being called a slur:

Nope wasn't forgotten. You win buddy.

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when it came to posting that chain letter, but you ended up parroting those points back at me as if somehow, a screed from a white supremacist would somehow be different if it came from someone from you? Sorry, but you're just about ready to say that if one black person can be president, then ANYONE can be president. I'm just beating you to the punch.

This is also a ridiculous statement to make considering that my state governor is black.

Poking holes in arguments is exactly what happens in a debate.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

It's not because your sense of scale is completely out of whack. Whites have been enjoying preference for centuries and I don't think that 30 years of a half-assed attempt at trying to make up for it makes a huge dent in the median socio-economic outcomes of white Americans. It's statistically insignificant. But for black folks, it has a huge impact due to increased access alone. Doing nothing will only ensure that inequities will remain.

First off, I didn't realize we were in a debate, I made the awful assumption we were in a discussion. If you want to make this a debate where someone must be proven wrong, at least make it accurate. I did not post that chain letter. I only "parroted" a point highlighting the hypocrisy that says I'm labelled as a racist because I'm white. Isn't black pride the same thing? Asian pride? I wasn't trying to incite a white pride moment. But, by stating that I'm simply not allowed to have pro-white programs, that it's also racist. I do understand your point that America is historically white-preferenced, but does that mean it's OK to be anti-white now as a result? Because we deserve it or something? And why exactly was it a ridiculous statement because your governor is black?

I mean, congratulations, but if I congratulate him for being elected into office in a historically pro-white country probably means I'm racist, and whites have secretly allowed this to happen so they can use it against the minorities in a carefully crafted plan to incite white supremacy laws. Yeah, nailed it...

I'm not going to argue statistics because it can be twisted to prove nearly any point. I am only saying that irrefutable progress has been made, and black men holding positions in government is a solid step. I never said it's sufficient as-is, and have repeatedly made the point that there's more that needs to be done.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

A vast majority of the institutions that have eliminated affirmative action efforts have led to decreased enrollment and employment of people of color. The only exception that I can think of at the moment is UC Berkeley with increased Asian enrollment. I hope you can resist the urge to roll out the Model Minority Myth. When it comes to the history of racism, I don't deal in opinions.

...nor do you address my point about hiring preferences or Driving While Black.

I know profiling exists, and I never said otherwise.

If a Black, Asian, White, whatever, is roughly qualified for a position, then its a perfect fit. If a black man is hired out of dozens of white applicants, then I'd hope it was for reasons of qualification and job performance, and that he wasn't hired just for the color of his skin. I'm only saying forcing race as the primary issue in and of itself is enough to perpetuate bitterness.

What if he's grossly underqualified but is hired anyway because the employer has no choice. What if he does a terrible job and costs the company huge amounts of money. He doesn't respond well to training and the only solution is to fire him. Is that racist to fire him? I've see plenty of white people get fired, but never once is the "it's because I'm white" excuse used. No, they were fired because they were terrible at their job or they F'd up big. Every time it's a black person, the employer is afraid to fire them because they don't want it to be seen as a race thing.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

I understand your types of opinions perfectly fine and understand them better than you do because I know where they come from, who they benefit, who they harm, how they persist, and why they persist. Like I said, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but then you decided to go whole hog and throw in your lot with the racist chain letter.

Of course you know my opinions and my point of view better than me, psh, who was I to think otherwise. I mean, you already have me all neatly packaged into a nice little categorized box of the cookie-cutter white boy. You clearly know where I was born, what type of community I was raised in, where my family is from, what my parents taught me, how much income we had growing up, the status of my education, what I've experienced growing up and professionally, what travels I've had, and how I vote. Yeah, you've got me all figured out. Hypocritical maybe?

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

White men built the systems and institutions that put them on top of the socio-economic hierarchy. This is not an opinion, but a statement of fact. Hell, it wasn't even until 1920 that white women were allowed to vote. This is also a fact. Whites in the past have been stacking the deck for whites in the future for centuries. Less stacking of the deck doesn't mean there's NO stacking of the deck. If anything, the deck is being stacked smarter, hence the Atwater quote.

I'm not saying that ALL white people are to blame, but they all certainly benefit from it compared to their non-white socio-economic peers.

Great attitude, lets just assume (nearly) every white person in a position of power is dedicated to stomping out minorities. There's no support for "persons of color" and it's a war zone out there.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

It is...unless you think that certain sports, sitcoms, and a specific genre of music is somehow diverse and representative. Most reasonable people would agree that it isn't. Hootie and the Blowfish is an exception to the rule...an outlier. We can go through the primetime weekly line-up of the major broadcast networks to see how much diversity there is, if you want.

Maybe the examples I listed weren't the best. But at this point I don't believe there's any argument, sentiment, opinion, or fact I could bring to this discussion (er, I mean debate) that would help you see past your own hatred for white people (or just your hatred of me for voicing an opinion that's not the same as your own). It's kinda sad that we fundamentally believe in the same goal, just not the same route, and I'm still labelled as the racist bigot who's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Then make better points?

Why's it my fault that you make them so easy to refute? Look, I'm no expert on racism(I know a few people that actually are), but I'm VERY knowledgeable on the subject. Just sayin

Again, I was under the impression we were having a discussion about racism. I didn't realize until today that we were in a competitive "who's right" debate where every damn point is a race to be proven wrong.

So, I give up, you win AznBRZer. Whether you're trolling me to flex your anti-white rhetoric or are truly as militant as you represent yourself, you've trounced all over this fragile topic and have defeated me, the evil white bigot.

Here's your trophy.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Nope wasn't forgotten. You win buddy.

Oh ok. So you were purposely removing context to make a deceptive point. Thanks!

[Dustin]

Dude why are you trying to start more sh*t. Grow up man. I didn't remove any context. I responded to one bit of what you said and then YOU responded out of context. When you said

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Out of context, you say? You must have forgotten about this nice little blurb about people being offended by being called a slur:

that is you again, rearranging the conversation to suit your needs.

Go ahead and respond in some sort of smart a$$ way. I'm sure it will further your ego and show how right you are in a pointless thread about how racism is bad. Wow what an inciteful subject. No one knew. Go ahead and tell everyone again how white people are racist. Kill whitey!! The white man is keeping you down.

[ramiram1984]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hVPLWR7chc&list=RD7lMuhlfEXII"]F**** With Minorities - YouTube[/ame]

[King Tut]

Talking race relations on a forum based around primarily newly purchased cars with a $25k entry point. I luvs it. I hear lots of complaints, and no solutions. I would like to hear @AznBRZer 's solutions to race relations and where his authority on the subject came from.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

First off, I didn't realize we were in a debate, I made the awful assumption we were in a discussion. If you want to make this a debate where someone must be proven wrong, at least make it accurate. I did not post that chain letter. I only "parroted" a point highlighting the hypocrisy that says I'm labelled as a racist because I'm white. Isn't black pride the same thing? Asian pride? I wasn't trying to incite a white pride moment. But, by stating that I'm simply not allowed to have pro-white programs, that it's also racist. I do understand your point that America is historically white-preferenced, but does that mean it's OK to be anti-white now as a result?

When white folks have been marginalized and oppressed in the same way they oppressed others while suffering from similiar socio-economic outcomes as Native Americans and black folks, I'd say that being pro-white probably won't be considered an issue. This source of pride comes from a place where societal norms that place non-whites on lower tier of the social hierarchy and the refusal to be treated as less than equally.

You wanna know why it's not the same thing? Because of shit like this:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/13/doll.study/

Talking about anti-white sentiment is like saying there's a war on christmas while standing next to a 40ft tall christmas tree with a table menorah next to it.

Because we deserve it or something? And why exactly was it a ridiculous statement because your governor is black?

I mean, congratulations, but if I congratulate him for being elected into office in a historically pro-white country probably means I'm racist, and whites have secretly allowed this to happen so they can use it against the minorities in a carefully crafted plan to incite white supremacy laws. Yeah, nailed it...

You're the one that made the ridiculous statements. I'm just following you down the rabbit hole because you're steering the discussion in that direction.

I'm not going to argue statistics because it can be twisted to prove nearly any point. I am only saying that irrefutable progress has been made, and black men holding positions in government is a solid step. I never said it's sufficient as-is, and have repeatedly made the point that there's more that needs to be done.


I know profiling exists, and I never said otherwise.

So now we go full circle again and your solution is to not use labels.

If a Black, Asian, White, whatever, is roughly qualified for a position, then its a perfect fit. If a black man is hired out of dozens of white applicants, then I'd hope it was for reasons of qualification and job performance, and that he wasn't hired just for the color of his skin. I'm only saying forcing race as the primary issue in and of itself is enough to perpetuate bitterness.

Well, considering all the studies on hiring practices when it comes to race, the person of color generally needs to be even MORE qualified than the white person to even get a call back. When it's easier for a formerly incarcerated white guy to get a call back than a black guy with no record and identical qualifications, we have a problem.

What if he's grossly underqualified but is hired anyway because the employer has no choice. What if he does a terrible job and costs the company huge amounts of money. He doesn't respond well to training and the only solution is to fire him. Is that racist to fire him? I've see plenty of white people get fired, but never once is the "it's because I'm white" excuse used. No, they were fired because they were terrible at their job or they F'd up big. Every time it's a black person, the employer is afraid to fire them because they don't want it to be seen as a race thing.

That's what a human resources department, company policies, and employee handbooks are for. Besides, who cares what the fired employee thinks when employers tend to have disproportionate bargaining power in the employer/employee relationship to begin with, while having most states being At-Will employment? But from all information we have on how black folks face increased scrutiny compared to other races, it's not a far stretch to say that they're allowed to fuck up less.

Of course you know my opinions and my point of view better than me, psh, who was I to think otherwise. I mean, you already have me all neatly packaged into a nice little categorized box of the cookie-cutter white boy. You clearly know where I was born, what type of community I was raised in, where my family is from, what my parents taught me, how much income we had growing up, the status of my education, what I've experienced growing up and professionally, what travels I've had, and how I vote. Yeah, you've got me all figured out. Hypocritical maybe?

Data and studies simply don't back your opinions and all opinions aren't equal. It's not like we're discussing why our favorite flavor of ice cream is the best.

It's strawberry btw.

Great attitude, lets just assume (nearly) every white person in a position of power is dedicated to stomping out minorities. There's no support for "persons of color" and it's a war zone out there.

Why does intent matter if the result is the same?

Maybe the examples I listed weren't the best. But at this point I don't believe there's any argument, sentiment, opinion, or fact I could bring to this discussion (er, I mean debate) that would help you see past your own hatred for white people (or just your hatred of me for voicing an opinion that's not the same as your own). It's kinda sad that we fundamentally believe in the same goal, just not the same route, and I'm still labelled as the racist bigot who's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Again, I was under the impression we were having a discussion about racism. I didn't realize until today that we were in a competitive "who's right" debate where every damn point is a race to be proven wrong.

So, I give up, you win AznBRZer. Whether you're trolling me to flex your anti-white rhetoric or are truly as militant as you represent yourself, you've trounced all over this fragile topic and have defeated me, the evil white bigot.

Here's your trophy.

LOLZ@"anti-white rhetoric" and "my own hatred for white people." One would think that I was talking about putting them in concentration camps or how they should be enslaved and how they're naturally inferior to the Negroid and Mongolian races from the way you talk.

I'm trying to drop some knowledge and get you to think more critically about your thoughts on racism, but I guess that means I just hate whitey.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

It's strawberry btw.

Expected vanilla or chocolate to tie into theme of thread. Leaving disappointed.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Dude why are you trying to start more sh*t. Grow up man. I didn't remove any context. I responded to one bit of what you said and then YOU responded out of context. When you said

that is you again, rearranging the conversation to suit your needs.

Go ahead and respond in some sort of smart a$$ way. I'm sure it will further your ego and show how right you are in a pointless thread about how racism is bad. Wow what an inciteful subject. No one knew. Go ahead and tell everyone again how white people are racist. Kill whitey!! The white man is keeping you down.

ORLY? Out of context you say?


Here, your very first post in this thread, is where you said people who get offended by slurs are insecure about their own inner racism:

Originally Posted by Dustin

They're just words. People get too offended from them. Maybe they're insecure about their own inner racism. But I do agree with Morgan Freeman in his video. There doesn't need to be a black history month, white history month, ect. Doing things like that and making it "okay" for one group and not another keeps racism alive and well. Same thing with colleges, scholarships, ect. It really needs to be an all or nothing. Either acceptable for all groups or unacceptable for all.

Here is where I point out that your opinion on people being offended doesn’t make sense:

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Hmmm...having a token month to focus(pay lip service) on black contributions to the US and history somehow keeps racism alive and well when most curriculum is focused on white folks anyways?

So if someone calls me a ch*nk, gook, slope, or zipperhead, I'M the one insecure about my "inner racism" as opposed to the (always a white)person being racist that called me that? Yeah OK.

Here is where you say I hate whitey because I said it was only white people that said those things to me:

Originally Posted by Dustin

Anyone can call me a honkey, whitey, peckerwood, redneck, cracker, hillbilly, ect. and I wouldn't give 2 f*cks about it because I couldn't care less about what some random person who is an absolute nobody in my life thinks about my skin color or heritage. I promise you it wasn't white people who thought of and used all of the derogatory racist slurs to describe a white person like the ones I listed above. So you saying it is always a white person who slanders you, well other people of other colors slander whites as well. It happens in all groups of people. Does that mean everyone in that group is bad? No. But you felt it necessary to point out the fact that it is always a "white person" which implies that if it always a white person, well then the whole group is bad. Just shows that you have animosity of your own towards white people. I'm not ashamed of the history of America and how slavery was acceptable. That was well over 200 years ago and I didn't take part of it. I'm not going to feel sorry for you because someone might think less of you. There are plenty of successful people of all ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, ect, and I'm sure they went through much of what others went through, if not even more given their successful status, and they didn't let that stop them. So in short, quit your whining, get over the fact that some people may think less of you based off of how you look and live your life. You're never going to make everyone happy so quit trying.

Here is where I say that it’s a fact that it was only white people that called me that stuff:

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

It was a statement of fact. Maybe you should take your own advice and look into your own prejudices.

Did I ask for your pity? I wanted you to reflect on your own statement that somehow the victim of racism should reflect on their own "inner racism." Do you understand how absurd that sounds? Are you about to call me the Real Racist because I talk about racism too?

Since you acknowledge that minorities of various stripes face more adversity than whites, then you realize that racism goes beyond words that we call eachother, but it's the actions and cultural forces that are behind them.

Then you go on to say that I'm not consistent, move goal posts, can't follow my own context, or whatever you think I'm doing blah blah blah. Sorry, but I'm not going to give you a clean slate every 2 posts just because you want to or if you have a projection problem. I can admit when I'm wrong, but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's rain.

[Dustin]

Good job picking different parts of the conversation AGAIN. You get worked up fairly easily don't you? Chillax man.....it's just the internet.