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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 08-19-2014, 03:36 PM   #15
thill
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Glad it worked.
It's pretty clear we are in an age where designers and engineers are obsessed with having ecu control over everything, windows, doors, switches etc.

Steer by wire and brake by wire are next. The older Miatas are definitely as most manual as you can get of any moder sporty car. Direct feeback is something missing now, and almost off when you feel it again. Miata Manual steering racks, no ABS even in the older ones makes from some very fun driving assuming you are not stuck in traffic with goats.
I was happy to hear the new Alfa Romeo C4 has manual steering But agreed, I think we are in too much of a rush to make everything electric and computerized when it comes to true sports cars. As good as the electronic steering is in say an FR-S, I think it could have been better had they used hydraulic.

The Miata R model was as basic as you could get. Manual steering, no ABS/nannies, no stock AC unit, manual windows, etc. And with such a low powered engine it is hard to make too big a mistake and not be able to recover vs something like an S2K where, as you noted, you need to have your wits about you.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:38 PM   #16
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Great video as usual. I really enjoy watching them except how you constantly call the cars "piles". Sometimes I wonder if there is a car on the planet that you and Turbowski actually like. I am really looking forward to the track and performance section of the video.
I think you are taking him too seriously

But that Chrysler Turbowski had in the shop is a beauty....
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:45 PM   #17
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Nice video, thanks for taking the time to make it!

I've been considering getting rid of my FR-S to get an S2k for a while now.

Couple of questions:

1). You mentioned the power steering was night and day different. Does this mean the 86 provided more feedback? Any elaboration?

2). Does the addition of traction control and drive by wire add or detract significantly from the driving experience on the street? I was aiming for 07/08, but maybe I need to go older if it makes a large enough difference.

3). Did you goto Shigeru's house and interview him? Because that's awesome. (humor)

Thanks!
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Steer by wire and brake by wire are next. The older Miatas are definitely as most manual as you can get of any moder sporty car. Direct feeback is something missing now, and almost off when you feel it again. Miata Manual steering racks, no ABS even in the older ones makes from some very fun driving assuming you are not stuck in traffic with goats.
That makes me shudder. I think Infiniti just released a car with steer-by-wire (Q50 I believe) and it's predictably awful.

Solid video btw. You've got a knack for these, although a bit choppy in the transition to the supercharged FR-S.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:10 PM   #19
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A question...

Towards the end of the video, the reviewer says the ap2 S2000 is a "far superior" sportscar to a stock FR-S/BRZ.

But just a few minutes before that, he said if the modded FR-S with dampers, brakes, and forced induction was the "STI/TRD" car and it only had the same wheel hp as the Honda, it would be better than the S2000.

Aside from non performance stuff like cheap plastic switches, the only thing he really complained about the stock 86 car was the lack of power. He never said anything bad about the brakes or suspension or anything. In fact, he liked the BRZ power steering better and reiterated the lack of horsepower was holding back the chassis capabilities.

The S2000 has 240hp against only 200hp of the BRZ, and that makes the S2000 "far superior" ?

I'm trying to decide how much if his comments are hyperbole.

I ride sportbikes and after a test drive, I certainly didn't think the BRZ was fast. But I didn't find it that lacking either. 40hp doesn't sound like that much. I haven't driven an S2000 but I can't see that making a night and day difference. But apparently that alone is enough to make it a better sportscar than a FR-S/BRZ ?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:27 PM   #20
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:32 PM   #21
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A question...

Towards the end of the video, the reviewer says the ap2 S2000 is a "far superior" sportscar to a stock FR-S/BRZ.

But just a few minutes before that, he said if the modded FR-S with dampers, brakes, and forced induction was the "STI/TRD" car and it only had the same wheel hp as the Honda, it would be better than the S2000.

Aside from non performance stuff like cheap plastic switches, the only thing he really complained about the stock 86 car was the lack of power. He never said anything bad about the brakes or suspension or anything. In fact, he liked the BRZ power steering better and reiterated the lack of horsepower was holding back the chassis capabilities.

The S2000 has 240hp against only 200hp of the BRZ, and that makes the S2000 "far superior" ?

I'm trying to decide how much if his comments are hyperbole.

I ride sportbikes and after a test drive, I certainly didn't think the BRZ was fast. But I didn't find it that lacking either. 40hp doesn't sound like that much. I haven't driven an S2000 but I can't see that making a night and day difference. But apparently that alone is enough to make it a better sportscar than a FR-S/BRZ ?
It is more than just horsepower with forced induction. You are getting more torque and running a tune that results in much more linear power. It is no secret that the stock tune on the FR-S/BRZ is not ideal as there is a torque dip. IMHO, I think the stock car is lacking torque more than anything which can make the car feel like it is going slower than it actually is. Also keep in mind the weight of the car relative to that 40hp/40tq increase. On a 3300lbs car it won't feel as dramatic as it does on a 2800lbs car that has such a dialed in chasis.

I would also recommend you watch some of Dezoris others videos on his FR-S since he has really detailed everything he put into his modded car.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:34 PM   #22
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great review, despite your apparent love for the s2k you managed to come across without seeming overly biased,
coming from fwd vws (which still hold some place in my heart) i fell in love with the frs, and it really is the simplicity that i like about it; the lack of 100 different buttons to control the radio, nothing flashy about the interior, the cockpit feel where anything that matters is in arms reach right there in front of you, everything about it is just about driving and i couldnt ask for anything else, definitely couldve used more power from factory actually, but ill sort that out on my own lol
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:39 PM   #23
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IMHO, I think the stock car is lacking torque more than anything which can make the car feel like it is going slower than it actually is.
thats it right there lol, my previous car (2010 golf 2.5) had pretty much reached peak torque at 2500rpm and held it till around 5500, this car feels considerably slower due to its lack of torque, wheras that car i could put my foot into it and it would just go whenever i wanted it to,
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rampage View Post
Great video as usual. I really enjoy watching them except how you constantly call the cars "piles". Sometimes I wonder if there is a car on the planet that you and Turbowski actually like. I am really looking forward to the track and performance section of the video.
Turbowski actually likes 911 GT3, 911, C6/C7, M3. But he works on crap so much nothing excites him. He'd rather drive and race than talk about them and work on them. He does actually like the S2000 and FRS just does not show it.

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I think you are taking him too seriously

But that Chrysler Turbowski had in the shop is a beauty....
Haha all he did was send me pics of Chryslers today to guess which ones they were.

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Originally Posted by Purdue FR-S View Post
Nice video, thanks for taking the time to make it!

I've been considering getting rid of my FR-S to get an S2k for a while now.

Couple of questions:

1). You mentioned the power steering was night and day different. Does this mean the 86 provided more feedback? Any elaboration?

2). Does the addition of traction control and drive by wire add or detract significantly from the driving experience on the street? I was aiming for 07/08, but maybe I need to go older if it makes a large enough difference.

3). Did you goto Shigeru's house and interview him? Because that's awesome. (humor)

Thanks!
1.) The FRS steering rack feels almost like a manual rack compared the the S2000, very direct and you get a sense of weight from it and some feedback. S2000 is numb, almost same rack they used in the 2000 Honda Insight first generation unit, not very refined.

2. I hate the traction system on the FRS. It has 3 modes:
A. Prison Mode. B. County Jail Mode C. Probation Mode D. Off with ABS Oddities.

3. Shigeru is in mansion somewhere in space, I had to use stock footage.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:46 PM   #25
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Love this guy. He throws in an expletive every now and then and at just the right moment.. "there's no FUCKING around with camber kits.."
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:01 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by poptart View Post
A question...

Towards the end of the video, the reviewer says the ap2 S2000 is a "far superior" sportscar to a stock FR-S/BRZ.

But just a few minutes before that, he said if the modded FR-S with dampers, brakes, and forced induction was the "STI/TRD" car and it only had the same wheel hp as the Honda, it would be better than the S2000.

Aside from non performance stuff like cheap plastic switches, the only thing he really complained about the stock 86 car was the lack of power. He never said anything bad about the brakes or suspension or anything. In fact, he liked the BRZ power steering better and reiterated the lack of horsepower was holding back the chassis capabilities.

The S2000 has 240hp against only 200hp of the BRZ, and that makes the S2000 "far superior" ?

I'm trying to decide how much if his comments are hyperbole.

I ride sportbikes and after a test drive, I certainly didn't think the BRZ was fast. But I didn't find it that lacking either. 40hp doesn't sound like that much. I haven't driven an S2000 but I can't see that making a night and day difference. But apparently that alone is enough to make it a better sportscar than a FR-S/BRZ ?
I have about 7 review videos on the FRS stock and with modification, so I did not go into great detail here, but certainly left a few things out of the 2nd video.

But to cut to the chase, the 86 really does have the better balanced chassis and Aero, and brakes don't overheat like the S2000 stock vs. stock. (with real pads) In so many ways the 86 is a better car.

But as in the video, Honda's engineer said it best and assuming you fit into an S2000, when you drive that car top down and you feel the harmony of the motor and trans and the twitchy nature of the car. As a driver it puts me into a satisfied state most cars can't. it's a visceral drivers car, it's only as good as the driver. The biggest complaint 14 years ago was the lack of power/TQ the S2000 made.

And its true it does not have a ton of power, but there is a sensation and rush to it much like a sports bike.

When you drive the cars back to back its very clear how underpowered and sedate the 86 motor is, even pumping induction noise into the cabin it just does not stir the senses as well. There is more to it of course but no point rambling.

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I love your videoes.
Thanks, makes it more fun to make them when people actual enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by thill View Post
It is more than just horsepower with forced induction. You are getting more torque and running a tune that results in much more linear power. It is no secret that the stock tune on the FR-S/BRZ is not ideal as there is a torque dip. IMHO, I think the stock car is lacking torque more than anything which can make the car feel like it is going slower than it actually is. Also keep in mind the weight of the car relative to that 40hp/40tq increase. On a 3300lbs car it won't feel as dramatic as it does on a 2800lbs car that has such a dialed in chasis.

I would also recommend you watch some of Dezoris others videos on his FR-S since he has really detailed everything he put into his modded car.
That's exactly how I feel. Most don't get power numbers are all relative to weight.

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great review, despite your apparent love for the s2k you managed to come across without seeming overly biased,
coming from fwd vws (which still hold some place in my heart) i fell in love with the frs, and it really is the simplicity that i like about it; the lack of 100 different buttons to control the radio, nothing flashy about the interior, the cockpit feel where anything that matters is in arms reach right there in front of you, everything about it is just about driving and i couldnt ask for anything else, definitely couldve used more power from factory actually, but ill sort that out on my own lol
That's what makes the car great and why its the biggest new tuner car. Price is low enough to screw around with things. There is nothing out there quite like it and has huge potential as a platform.

I just continue to wish for that factory hi-performance trim with a warranty.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:20 PM   #27
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Bottomline: a stock s2000 is faster around a circuit than a gt86. It is not better, just faster due to the grunt advantage. Which is better is a subjective determination. I own and race both.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poptart View Post
A question...

Towards the end of the video, the reviewer says the ap2 S2000 is a "far superior" sportscar to a stock FR-S/BRZ.

But just a few minutes before that, he said if the modded FR-S with dampers, brakes, and forced induction was the "STI/TRD" car and it only had the same wheel hp as the Honda, it would be better than the S2000.

Aside from non performance stuff like cheap plastic switches, the only thing he really complained about the stock 86 car was the lack of power. He never said anything bad about the brakes or suspension or anything. In fact, he liked the BRZ power steering better and reiterated the lack of horsepower was holding back the chassis capabilities.

The S2000 has 240hp against only 200hp of the BRZ, and that makes the S2000 "far superior" ?

I'm trying to decide how much if his comments are hyperbole.

I ride sportbikes and after a test drive, I certainly didn't think the BRZ was fast. But I didn't find it that lacking either. 40hp doesn't sound like that much. I haven't driven an S2000 but I can't see that making a night and day difference. But apparently that alone is enough to make it a better sportscar than a FR-S/BRZ ?
imho
The S2K once in vtec will pull and pull and pull all the way up to 140-150mph (quickly) and feel solidly planted while doing it. I don't feel my FR-S will pull nearly as hard and starts to feel floaty around 75-80mph.

I feel the S2K is a higher quality car and better sportscar, but I prefer my FR-S as a DD.
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