FR-S vs MkIV Supra

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

That's just because the Supra is a real sports car,

IMO, MR-Spyder is MUCH more of a real "sports car" than the Supra. at 3400+ lb., MkIV Supra and Z32TT are Japanese muscle/pony cars that handle.

Like it or not, the motor is just as key to a real sports car as is the suspension, chassis, and styling. Deal.

It is appropriate for a PROPER "sports car" to have a small, lightweight engine.

MkIV Supra is a landmark car. But it's more "Japanese Muscle" or jr. supercar than a sports car. Miata and MR-Spyder are the *real* sports cars.
Deal :P

[Crashoverride]

coming from many 400 hp+ cars... all I have to say is "my driving and power preferences have changed..."

[JohnnyR]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

It's very telling that every time I talk about vehicle dynamics, handling, and involvement, JohnnyR always beings up 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times. Someone is living at the drag strip.

Wrong, set down the kool-aid for a sec. I actually track my cars and understand fully well the importance of power through various turns and on straights. Power is necessary for the turns you know.

This car started as one thing, and ended up another. Right now it went from a potential new track car for me to now a daily beater that's probably not boring to drive and look at while getting decent MPG. I'll just have to wait a little longer for Toyota to actually come back to it's Golden Era form which I direly miss.

[86fanatic]

There's two types of kool aid being thrown around here. The Supra kool aid and the FR-S/BRZ kool aid. It is up to the consumers to pick which kool aid tastes better.

[tlp]

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

If they were to do another, it'd be mucked up somehow I feel at this point with Toyota's track record.

With amount of buzz and hype that the 86 is producing and the aftermarket development that's going into it, I'd say Toyota is doing something right... It's sucks to say but I don't think the Supra seems like it is in line with Toyota's brand anymore. I wonder who would actually pay for a $150k Toyota if it came to it?

[tlp]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

There's two types of kool aid being thrown around here. The Supra kool aid and the FR-S/BRZ kool aid. It is up to the consumers to pick which kool aid tastes better.

Supra Kool Aid is always going to taste better. FR-S/BRZ (Diet) Kool Aid is probably better for you though. :happy0180:

[Exhaust]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

JohnnyR is too concerned about putting cars into classes and making bold statements about cars "outclassing" others to be concerned with the details.

MR2 Spyder was meant to compete with the Miata. It did great. Those cars are not better or worse then a Supra, they are different and fill a different need. In many ways those cars are better then a Supra. I would go so far as to say the 1ZZ was the right engine choice, the 2ZZ adds a non trivial amount of weight to the rear and tends to throw off the balance. The stock car feels perfect 50/50. Take it from someone who has driven both a 1ZZ and 2ZZ swapped Spyder.

Supra was meant to compete with the VR4, 300ZX, RX7 and other Japanese twin turbo 6 cylinders. It did great in that sector of cars. These cars are not better or worse then a Miata or a MR2 Spyder, again they fill a different need.

The FRS/BRZ is meant to appeal to the same people who might be considering a Cayman, 911, or other purist sports cars. It will be a bit slower due to power, but also cost 1/4 as much and generally be more appropriate for public roads and having fun at a race track. It is not better or worse then anything else, again it fills a different need.

It's very telling that every time I talk about vehicle dynamics, handling, and involvement, JohnnyR always beings up 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times. Someone is living at the drag strip.

I really enjoy creeping on your post's and learning from what you have to say. Cheers:happy0180:

[JohnnyR]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

MR2 Spyder was meant to compete with the Miata. It did great. Those cars are not better or worse then a Supra, they are different and fill a different need. In many ways those cars are better then a Supra. I would go so far as to say the 1ZZ was the right engine choice, the 2ZZ adds a non trivial amount of weight to the rear and tends to throw off the balance. The stock car feels perfect 50/50. Take it from someone who has driven both a 1ZZ and 2ZZ swapped Spyder.

Supra was meant to compete with the VR4, 300ZX, RX7 and other Japanese twin turbo 6 cylinders. It did great in that sector of cars. These cars are not better or worse then a Miata or a MR2 Spyder, again they fill a different need.

The FRS/BRZ is meant to appeal to the same people who might be considering a Cayman, 911, or other purist sports cars. It will be a bit slower due to power, but also cost 1/4 as much and generally be more appropriate for public roads and having fun at a race track. It is not better or worse then anything else, again it fills a different need.

It's very telling that every time I talk about vehicle dynamics, handling, and involvement, JohnnyR always beings up 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times. Someone is living at the drag strip.

The MKIV Supra just evolved off of the Celica Supra (before it's own more self iterations), so it's original intention was not that of competing with TT6s.

Nobody who is looking at a Cayman, 911, or purist sports cars is going to look at a Sporty car such as the 86. It lacks the "refinement" found in those cars, not to mention a proper motor to be considered a "sports car".

Once again, I don't live at a drag strip, and I've proven that much. What about the turns where you need to power out? What about the straights? Hell, what about passing cars on the interstates/highways or even driving a mountain road in commute. Power/Motor is important if you like it or not, though the 86 lacks it so it's not needed according to Toyota, err, I mean real enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by tlp

I wonder who would actually pay for a $150k Toyota if it came to it?

If they'd come out with a proper Supra in the low 30s (base) with a premium REAL high performance model like the Turbo was in the day and it was in the 40's, I think many would buy it up. Myself included. We're speaking USD of course, saw your local.

[tlp]

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

If they'd come out with a proper Supra in the low 30s (base) with a premium REAL high performance model like the Turbo was in the day and it was in the 40's, I think many would buy it up. Myself included. We're speaking USD of course, saw your local.

Wait. How much were Supras going for new when they were released in the US? I know the answer is going to make me cry but I guess I would like to know either way...

I know In the last few years, in Australia, some Late Model Jap Spec Supras were still demanding over $35k + once imported into Australia.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by tlp

Wait. How much were Supras going for new when they were released in the US? I know the answer is going to make me cry but I guess I would like to know either way...

I know In the last few years, in Australia, some Late Model Jap Spec Supras were still demanding over $35k + once imported into Australia.

He is just asking for something that is financially impossible. Ignore that

[Guff]

Originally Posted by tlp

Wait. How much were Supras going for new when they were released in the US? I know the answer is going to make me cry but I guess I would like to know either way...

I know In the last few years, in Australia, some Late Model Jap Spec Supras were still demanding over $35k + once imported into Australia.

About 41k MSRP in 1998 for the Turbo Manual. It was about 31.5k for the NA.

[tlp]

Originally Posted by Guff

About 41k MSRP in 1998 for the Turbo Manual. It was about 31.5k for the NA.

WTF? Aren't some used supras still fetching roughly those prices today?

I guess the ratio from Australia to the USA would make it valued at roughly $80k if they were sold here.

If they released a Supra for $80k in the future that would be tempting! Of course it would have to live up to it's predecessor though so Toyota has alot of work to do!

[JohnnyR]

Originally Posted by tlp

WTF? Aren't some used supras still fetching roughly those prices today?

I guess the ratio from Australia to the USA would make it valued at roughly $80k if they were sold here.

If they released a Supra for $80k in the future that would be tempting! Of course it would have to live up to it's predecessor though so Toyota has alot of work to do!

The car has a high demand yet and thus it's relatively close to it's original value IF you can find one that's not clubbed/modded to hell, and especially one that's RSBP or QSM in color with a 6-spd.

Originally Posted by fatoni

He is just asking for something that is financially impossible. Ignore that

Originally Posted by Guff

About 41k MSRP in 1998 for the Turbo Manual. It was about 31.5k for the NA.

Thanks Guff for getting in ahead of me with the ownage again, (though they were ~50k in the early/mid 90's, then got a price cut) but time to drive it home.

A 300+hp RWD car these days can be had in the 20's this very day, some trickling into the 30's. (Mustang, Camaro, Z, etc). Toyota of all companies can easily get a RWD Turbo-6 out there putting out 400+ hp in the 40's if they cared enough to.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

The MKIV Supra just evolved off of the Celica Supra (before it's own more self iterations), so it's original intention was not that of competing with TT6s.

Here's hoping they build a new Supra off this modern 240SX/80s rwd Celica platform!

Nobody who is looking at a Cayman, 911, or purist sports cars is going to look at a Sporty car such as the 86. It lacks the "refinement"

Appropriate that you have "refinement" in quotes! Porsche doesn't have a patent on refinement.

found in those cars, not to mention a proper motor to be considered a "sports car".

IMO, Porsche would be more true to its roots of being fast through simplicity and light weight. For my money, I'd rather have a less powerful, 4cylinder only Boxster/Cayman that was more in line with FR-S weight, or a bit lighter. That would be MORE of a sports car than the ~2900-3100 lb. 6-cylinder models, even if slower.

Power/Motor is important if you like it or not, though the 86 lacks it so it's not needed according to Toyota, err, I mean real enthusiasts.

I don't have any problem getting around in my S2000 with less than 150hp below 5000rpm. I pretty much never exceed that on the street.

Of course more power is better, but minimalism and light weight are really more important in a sports car, IMO.

If they'd come out with a proper Supra in the low 30s (base) with a premium REAL high performance model like the Turbo was in the day and it was in the 40's, I think many would buy it up. Myself included. We're speaking USD of course, saw your local.

Here's what I think they should do:
Make a 2-seat sports car out of this platform, with the engine and front seats moved ~24" aft. 200hp NA/300hp turbo 4s weighing ~2600-2800 lb. (less = better of course), with 50/50 or better (more rearward) F/R distribution.

Personal preference, but I'd greatly prefer that to a new ubercar with 1000+ hp potential that weighed 3400+ lb.