On the hunt: The new Toyota GT86 Tiger Limited Edition

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Kutanks

I dated a girl with a first gen TC and knew a few more girls with them. Hard pass on one of those, its basically a Celica.

Fixed that for ya.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

"Scion" was created because no one thought young Americans would buy a Toyota anymore after they'd mismanaged the brand into low-thrill people movers and grocery-getters. Scion did the marketing* in America, but had nothing to do with product design. Every Scion vehicle was badged as a Toyota somewhere else in the world. IIRC the move happened around the same time Lexus was created to be the upscale badge. The idea was to have three brands in America; a youth brand, a family brand, and a luxury brand.

*And I do mean marketing. While they did some traditional advertising (print/TV), their focus was more boots-on-the-ground guerilla advertising; like events and sponsoring music festivals. You know - for kids. It worked OK for a while in the 90s, but there really never was a valid reason to rebadge the cars.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Lexus was created in the late '80s, roughly the same time as Acura because the Japanese manufacturers were putting in enough effort to fight the luxury brands like BMW and Mercedes, but nobody would buy them because of the badge. A ~$20k Honda or a BMW (at the time) wasn't even a choice for most people when 'jap crap' was still the common mentality. That changed after people saw how good '80s Japanese cars were as they decimated everyone else in durability through the '90s.

*insert the million mile Lexus meme*

Scion was founded in 2003.

I agree with everything else you said.

I would love to go back in time and see the people that worked at corporate Scion back when it started and still had energy and impact. I can imagine it was pretty laid back and "bro" or "dude" could be heard in every sentence.


I have wondered in the past if part of the reason it failed was that they never replaced that original staff. I know they didn't exist a long time but those young "hip" people that made it a success at first may have aged just enough that they lost contact with what would attract the attention of the even younger generation. They continued to push the cars in the manner that worked in 2003 to 2008 but was no longer relevant in 2012 to 2016.

[bkharmony]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Lexus was created in the late '80s

Jeeze - was it really? I guess I didn't notice them around back then.

[bkharmony]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I would love to go back in time and see the people that worked at corporate Scion back when it started and still had energy and impact. I can imagine it was pretty laid back and "bro" or "dude" could be heard in every sentence.

I have wondered in the past if part of the reason it failed was that they never replaced that original staff. I know they didn't exist a long time but those young "hip" people that made it a success at first may have aged just enough that they lost contact with what would attract the attention of the even younger generation. They continued to push the cars in the manner that worked in 2003 to 2008 but was no longer relevant in 2012 to 2016.

The dealership I got my 2013 TC from and just bought my 2017 86 from has an employee they just call "Mr. Scion." He's even got a special parking spot with a "Mr. Scion Parking Only" sign. I chatted with him quite a bit. He was with Scion from day one and told me they folded for two reasons: because Toyota just didn't believe in that style of marketing anymore, and because they wouldn't improve the cars or give them anything unique to sell. Sounds about right to me.

I don't know if it was because their original staff got old (Mr. Scion is in his late 40s/early 50s), or the brand just didn't get the support to make it successful. He told me they quit doing sponsorships and any kind of events and just basically quit marketing. That dog won't hunt.

Mr. Scion sells Toyotas now and hates it. But he did help out with my FRS... I mean 86.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I would love to go back in time and see the people that worked at corporate Scion back when it started and still had energy and impact. I can imagine it was pretty laid back and "bro" or "dude" could be heard in every sentence.

lmao, you have waay too much optimism that they put that much effort in to begin with. They hired middle aged businessmen just like they do now.

http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota.c...rticle_id=2307

Originally Posted by bkharmony

Jeeze - was it really? I guess I didn't notice them around back then.

If you lived in Texas, the Midwest, or the South your whole life I wouldn't be surprised. Bet you still hear the phrase 'jap crap'...

Originally Posted by bkharmony

He was with Scion from day one and told me they folded for two reasons: because Toyota just didn't believe in that style of marketing anymore, and because they wouldn't improve the cars or give them anything unique to sell. Sounds about right to me.

imo it's always about the cars. Put whatever badge you want on it, put whatever paint job is trendy on top, if it's still the same watered down econo-box, people catch on. If it's a car worth having people catch on (see Mazda and Subaru trending up, despite relatively stagnant marketing and brand image), reliability ratings climb, journalists rank it ahead of the competition, and boom, Koreans are quickly grabbing market share.

The FR-S didn't outsell the TC because it was new and exciting, it outsold the TC because Toyota let the Celica languish and turn beige in the search for wider market appeal instead of making it the best fun budget friendly coupe it used to be that sold hundreds of thousands per year.

If the TC was in 2010 what the Celica or Corolla was in 1985 we wouldn't have an 86, but we'd have a TC worth buying.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

The dealership I got my 2013 TC from and just bought my 2017 86 from has an employee they just call "Mr. Scion." He's even got a special parking spot with a "Mr. Scion Parking Only" sign. I chatted with him quite a bit. He was with Scion from day one and told me they folded for two reasons: because Toyota just didn't believe in that style of marketing anymore, and because they wouldn't improve the cars or give them anything unique to sell. Sounds about right to me.

I don't know if it was because their original staff got old (Mr. Scion is in his late 40s/early 50s), or the brand just didn't get the support to make it successful. He told me they quit doing sponsorships and any kind of events and just basically quit marketing. That dog won't hunt.

Mr. Scion sells Toyotas now and hates it. But he did help out with my FRS... I mean 86.

Ya he is at the dealer level so by the time it trickled down to him from Scion headquarters the story probably would be "well it is Toyota's fault". Possibly the reason that Toyota pulled support was Scion's staff just weren't cutting it anymore. Hard to really call the cause and effect on that.
This is of course all speculation on my part with zero evidence to back it up.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

lmao, you have waay too much optimism that they put that much effort in to begin with. They hired middle aged businessmen just like they do now.

http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota.c...rticle_id=2307



.

LOL Not really "optimism" so much as a horrid stereotype that I created in my head! Something worked for several years before they fell apart and I know they officially blame the 2009 economic conditions but I have to believe there was more to it then just that.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

LOL Not really "optimism" so much as a horrid stereotype that I created in my head! Something worked for several years before they fell apart and I know they officially blame the 2009 economic conditions but I have to believe there was more to it then just that.

idk, seems pretty obvious to me. They were selling budget Toyotas, people caught on and realized the Scion wasn't much better than the budget Ford or Nissan or Kia down the street.

TV commercials can only do so much, it's the same thing as it was before, Corolla has piss poor options at the base model trim where Kia gives you all the goodies for less. If the reliability rankings and repair costs aren't much different and they both drive like the boring refrigerators they are, the average Joe ends up with the Kia.

That doesn't change when you slap a Scion badge on it. The xB was something that didn't have any competition so it sold well, once the xB started comparing poorly to a Toyota Matrix or a Honda Fit or a Nissan Juke or a Hyundai whatever, the jig was up.

Scion failed because Toyota has been resting on their laurels for almost 20 years at this point. If Toyota was still designing top notch cars Scion would have flourished.

[bkharmony]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If you lived in Texas, the Midwest, or the South your whole life I wouldn't be surprised. Bet you still hear the phrase 'jap crap'...

Yep. Arizona/Texas my whole life (well, a few years in Michigan). I barely knew Japanese cars existed. Nobody in my family would acknowledge anything without at least a 350 in it. Kinda weird I'm driving a 2.0 liter Boxer now.

imo it's always about the cars. Put whatever badge you want on it, put whatever paint job is trendy on top, if it's still the same watered down econo-box, people catch on.

No doubt. There was nothing going on in the Scion lineup. Toyota gave up on it.

The FR-S didn't outsell the TC because it was new and exciting, it outsold the TC because Toyota let the Celica languish and turn beige in the search for wider market appeal instead of making it the best fun budget friendly coupe it used to be that sold hundreds of thousands per year.

I still think the TC could've been a great competitor to the Golf/Jetta. I loved mine. If they still made them I would've gone in and bought another one when my lease expired (glad I didnt now though). But despite it being a great car, it trailed competitors in pretty much every metric. The only reason I ended up in one is I got fed up with VW's financing mafia and walked across the street to the Toyota/Scion dealer.

I wonder though if Toyota ignoring Scion is part of a larger plan to revitalize the Toyota badge. I mean, last week we got word of the plan for the trio of performance cars. Maybe this was the plan all along and they wanted to brand them as Toyotas, so Scion had to go.

Or maybe Toyota's making shit up as they go along!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

idk, seems pretty obvious to me. They were selling budget Toyotas, people caught on and realized the Scion wasn't much better than the budget Ford or Nissan or Kia down the street.

TV commercials can only do so much, it's the same thing as it was before, Corolla has piss poor options at the base model trim where Kia gives you all the goodies for less. If the reliability rankings and repair costs aren't much different and they both drive like the boring refrigerators they are, the average Joe ends up with the Kia.

That doesn't change when you slap a Scion badge on it. The xB was something that didn't have any competition so it sold well, once the xB started comparing poorly to a Toyota Matrix or a Honda Fit or a Nissan Juke or a Hyundai whatever, the jig was up.

Scion failed because Toyota has been resting on their laurels for almost 20 years at this point. If Toyota was still designing top notch cars Scion would have flourished.

Yep I can see all that.
We didn't have the same exposure to Scion up here since it didn't start until 2010 and many cities didn't even get a dealer until 2013. They never sold enough here in that short time for people to form an opinion on quality or value.
It is funny that other than some of the large urban centers (Toronto, Vancouver, etc) Scions here are looked at as some weird, high-end, exotic by most of the public. If they only knew...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

No doubt. There was nothing going on in the Scion lineup. Toyota gave up on it.

The way they are structured Toyota never gave up on Scion, they gave up on designing quality budget automobiles. Toyota designs cars in Japan, they don't give a shit what badge goes on it in which country as long as it sells.

Giving up on Scion would imply they put good cars under the Toyota badge that would have helped Scion, but they didn't, they simply had no good cars to give (except the FR-S).

VW was very close to taking the top auto manufacturer spot. I think dieselgate hosed that chance but the point is Toyota is no longer the juggernaut it once was, they're finally reaping what they sowed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels.../#4b18091676b0

But despite it being a great car, it trailed competitors in pretty much every metric.

Bingo.

I wonder though if Toyota ignoring Scion is part of a larger plan to revitalize the Toyota badge. I mean, last week we got word of the plan for the trio of performance cars. Maybe this was the plan all along and they wanted to brand them as Toyotas, so Scion had to go.

lmao that is based on a statement from 2012, it's not new at all. The development with BMW is wrapping up on the Z5/Toyota and there should be an announcement later this year. The SFR concept was already unveiled, just waiting to see if it'll hit production and come to the US, likely that one won't see any details until two or three years from now.

http://kaizen-factor.com/tetsuya-tad...orts-car-talk/

Toyota couldn't give a shit what badge those cars had here as long as it was profitable. They are going to build them (or not) regardless.

As for the 'plan to revitalize the toyota brand', well they put that plan into action a whopping 10 years ago when they began putting together the team for the 86, way to go slugger, really nailing this one.

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-to...eated-the-gt86

#isToyotaRevitalizedYet?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

No doubt. There was nothing going on in the Scion lineup. Toyota gave up on it.

No they didn't. Other than the TC you can buy every one of the other models today.
In fact the iA was always sold as a Yaris sedan in Canada. It never was badged as Scion even when Scion existed.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

In fact the iA was always sold as a Yaris sedan in Canada. It never was badged as Scion even when Scion existed.

The only new Toyota I would buy today and it's made by Mazda.

[HKz]

I don't look at Scion as a failure, the brand did what it was set out to do, it had the lowest average age of buyers in the industry for a while and it wasn't entirely Toyota's fault that the brand fell into obscurity...the US recession + tsunami were the catalysts and I'm sure Toyota could never justify making a new gen tC or xB for the generation that didn't have much disposable income especially for a new veh not to mention the dwindling interest in automobiles with the younger crowd too. What is sad is how much branding dictates buyers especially in the US :/ I have never been embarrassed or ashamed by the toyota logo