BRZ vs Cayman/Corvette

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by FX86

i drove a cayman once ....in forza...it was good

the corvertte in gran turismo handled like a loose pig

Cayman in NFS Underground was amazing. it's too bad porshce is the Apple of the car world and wont license their cars more often. to wit: project cars has "RUF GT3s" in lieu of porsches

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m

Cayman in NFS Underground was amazing. it's too bad porshce is the Apple of the car world and wont license their cars more often. to wit: project cars has "RUF GT3s" in lieu of porsches

They actually just let that EA exclusive license expire. Prepare to see them in all the other series they've been absent from.

[WolfpackS2k]

^Yeah, I can't freaking wait.

[Ganthrithor]

As someone who's daily driven a BRZ and a 997, here are some thoughts:

BRZ Advantages

• More economical to buy and operate: will save a bunch of money over a 987 / 997 if you buy a used BRZ (which you should because why eat the depreciation on a new car when there's plenty of used ones around now). Everything is cheaper: less gas, smaller tyres, less wear and tear on brakes due to light weight, etc.
• More exotic-looking (very subjective, I know, but I honestly think the BRZ looks phenomenal-- very different from my 997, but in some ways more interesting to look at)
• Won't tempt you to do vastly illegal things: the BRZ starts getting loud and unenthusiastic about further acceleration as you get to about 80mph on the highway. The Porsche will happily whisk you into the triple digits and cruise there comfortably and confidently until somebody with flashing lights prevents you from continuing.

Porsche Advantages

• Nicer place to sit: better fit + finish on cabin, fewer creaks and groans, less road noise, substantially less engine noise at cruise power, nicer stereo, etc.
• More compliant ride. Disclaimer: my 997 is a base Carrera on 18's with nice high-profile tyres-- your mileage may vary if you start looking at S models on 19's with skinny tyres and PASM.
• More mid-range torque available for daily driving-- while not strictly necessary, it does make the daily driving experience more pleasant.
• **Subjective Opinion Alert**: incredible engine sound. The stock cars have resonator chambers that reduce induction noise, but put an aftermarket intake on a Porsche flat-six and it howls under WOT acceleration. It's a very horny noise.
• More interesting balance in the twisties-- you can do a lot to tweak a car's balance, but the effect of moving the engine to the middle or the back end is hard to duplicate in a front-engined car. Makes the car feel very agile in tight corners.
• Probably at or close to the bottom of its depreciation curve. This is a bigger deal than it sounds like, especially if you're considering new BRZ vs used Porsche. The Porsche may be more expensive to buy and burn more gas, but if it holds its value over the next six years while the BRZ goes from its ~29k sticker price to being worth 12k, the Porsche might end up being less expensive (or at least equivalent) car to own. I don't think you'll eat much depreciation buying a 996 or 987 at this point.
• "More performance": the 997 has more muscle, more grip, and feels like a much faster car overall. Personally I think the absolute performance is kind of irrelevant-- it's how a car responds to being driven fast that matters-- but not everyone feels this way.

Don't let the "no power" crowd deceive you about the BRZ's fun-to-driveness. The lack of power matters less and less the more interesting / deserted the roads become; it's a real driver's car that is more rewarding the harder you push it, and with a little engine you can push it very hard indeed.

The Porsche is a much more serious car-- it's got a lot more power and more grip (even on the "little" base wheels / tyres). It does daily driving stuff better than the BRZ, and is just as fun to flog on a back road or autocross on weekends. The downside is that you'll pay more out of pocket to run the thing on a daily basis: repairs, preventative maintenance, and consumables are all going to be more expensive.

For better or for worse, the Porsche's also got a Porsche badge: I don't know how old you are, but I'm 28 and not everyone seems to appreciate seeing a young person driving a 911 around. Personally I couldn't give two shits what anyone thinks: if they want to spend their $30k on a loaded, brand-new Camry and then judge me for spending the same amount on a Porsche, that's their right. I know which one I'd rather own, but to each their own. At the same time though, this particular Subaru actually suffers the same problem, since people who don't know their cars have no idea what it is and it looks very exotic. Plenty of people seem to assume that the BRZ is some kind of very expensive car, so either way you may get funny looks.

Overall they're both fantastic cars. I'd basically look at it this way: both cars are similarly fun when pushed toward their limits. If you really enjoy driving cars hard, you'll get a lot of weekend enjoyment out of either vehicle. The Porsche has a bit of a leg up on the BRZ in that it can do the weekend dance just as well (if not a little better due to the rear weight bias feeling interesting), but also manages to be a quiet, comfortable car to drive on your commute. Due to almost a decade of progress and feature creep, the BRZ in some ways has more modern conveniences than the Porsche (satnav, keyless entry, USB ports / aux jacks for your music / devices, etc), but build quality, interior noise levels, etc are all better in the 997.

TL;DR: my BRZ is about 85-90% as fun to drive hard as my 997, and costs a lot less to run, but depreciates more. My 997 is more expensive to run, but doesn't depreciate, is a little more fun on weekend drives, and is a more comfortable, more effortless car to daily drive. Plebs think I'm an asshole for driving either one because one's a Porsche and the other's a Ferrari.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

....The Porsche will happily whisk you into the triple digits and cruise there comfortably and confidently until somebody with flashing lights prevents you from continuing.

So terribly true. Even my old Boxster that's basically got the same power and weight is a lot more effortless getting up to speed than the 86-mobile, and feels much more at home at speeds that just aren't really cool around here...in my case, no less noisy, though. That ragtop lets plenty of noise and wind noise in past highway speed.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

[*] **Subjective Opinion Alert**: incredible engine sound. The stock cars have resonator chambers that reduce induction noise, but put an aftermarket intake on a Porsche flat-six and it howls under WOT acceleration. It's a very horny noise.

Nah, nothing subjective about it. Porsche noises are something special, and pretty much everybody knows it. The 86 car sounds great in its own way, but the Porsche flat sixes just sit on their own pedestal. Even with all the intake baffling, it still sounds wonderful. I'm amazed at how much less noise is made outside of the car, but since that's not where I tend to be, I'm quite happy with what I hear from inside.

Interestingly enough, those 3.0L+ Subaru flat sixes you'd find in something like an Outback from the last decade sound incredibly similar to Porsche's when you can really wind them up and free up the exhaust end (found out they actually helped Subaru in the engineering of those engines, so not so surprising then). Friend of mine dropped one of the sixes in an old 2.5RS chassis, and if you only heard the car and didn't see it, you'd swear you were listening to a 911 ripping around. It's uncanny how much they sound like Porsche sixes.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Don't let the "no power" crowd deceive you about the BRZ's fun-to-driveness. The lack of power matters less and less the more interesting / deserted the roads become; it's a real driver's car that is more rewarding the harder you push it, and with a little engine you can push it very hard indeed.

Agreed here. It's what really drew me to the car in the first place, knowing the car requires more attention to handling it well to get the most out of it, because the power isn't there to make up for it. I find it very reminiscent of the early Boxster, which up to this point has been the best handling car I've ever driven. I have to say I find the 86-car to handle much flatter, and the much more supportive seats keep me planted way better, but that's also not too surprising from a nearly 20-year newer car. After winter I'm looking forward to getting a good comparison between the two.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

For better or for worse, the Porsche's also got a Porsche badge: I don't know how old you are, but I'm 28 and not everyone seems to appreciate seeing a young person driving a 911 around.

Not much older than you, and I've had my 986 for almost 7 years now. I dealt with that as a 25 year old with a car that people just assume still costs $60,000, and still do to this day almost any time I'm in it. Some folks go out of their way to have a problem with it and/or be jealous, like you don't deserve to spend your money how you will, or that you should be sheepish or embarrassed that you spent your money (and not a red cent of theirs) in such a way. End of the day, it's a car like any other, and while people may assume by the kind of car it is that I'm some young, full-of-myself douchebag, I'm far from it, and don't do anything to make anyone think so...except owning and driving a Porsche. I'm doing myself no favors by owning multiple sports cars now, but I don't really care. Being in a 911, I'm sure you get the judgments even worse, since they all probably think you spent $100k on it/you're a drug dealer/you're some new money hotshot/your daddy bought it for you. Then the other side of that is some folks assume I bought a Boxster because I couldn't afford a 911, not because I wanted a Boxster and not a 911.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Due to almost a decade of progress and feature creep, the BRZ in some ways has more modern conveniences than the Porsche (satnav, keyless entry, USB ports / aux jacks for your music / devices, etc), but build quality, interior noise levels, etc are all better in the [Porsche].

In my case it's nearly 2 decades, making it even more apparent, but definitely true. I've got a CD player......that's about it. No aux port, no USB, my power port is actually an old school lighter, and no cup holders whatsoever. Just a very different era for needs and what came in a car standard. I think over the years they've also done more to isolate the cabin from the engine noise (probably more prevalent in a Boxster than a 911 due to placement), and I personally think that's a shame, but I do get it from the viewpoint of increasing luxury and creature comfort creep as the years wear on and technology trickles down. Some people don't like hearing things work. I love my engine noises, so I don't mind hearing more of it in my older, less insulated car, but I'm not your typical Porsche buyer by any stretch, so that's an argument I'll never win. I also don't care for fake engine noises, though, so I'll eventually be plugging up that sound tube hole in the Toyota once I swap out the stock intake. If it can't make enough noise from the start, don't fake it for me. Better than pumping completely artificial noises through the speakers, though...that's just wrong.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

Nah, nothing subjective about it. Porsche noises are something special, and pretty much everybody knows it. The 86 car sounds great in its own way, but the Porsche flat sixes just sit on their own pedestal. Even with all the intake baffling, it still sounds wonderful. I'm amazed at how much less noise is made outside of the car, but since that's not where I tend to be, I'm quite happy with what I hear from inside.

Interestingly enough, those 3.0L+ Subaru flat sixes you'd find in something like an Outback from the last decade sound incredibly similar to Porsche's when you can really wind them up and free up the exhaust end (found out they actually helped Subaru in the engineering of those engines, so not so surprising then). Friend of mine dropped one of the sixes in an old 2.5RS chassis, and if you only heard the car and didn't see it, you'd swear you were listening to a 911 ripping around. It's uncanny how much they sound like Porsche sixes.

I still think an 86 with a Porsche flat six would be an incredible one-off car. If I were to put a totally irrational amount of money into an 86, that is unquestionably what I would do. Maybe you could even find an engine out of a crashed 997 GT3

Originally Posted by Overdrive

Agreed here. It's what really drew me to the car in the first place, knowing the car requires more attention to handling it well to get the most out of it, because the power isn't there to make up for it. I find it very reminiscent of the early Boxster, which up to this point has been the best handling car I've ever driven. I have to say I find the 86-car to handle much flatter, and the much more supportive seats keep me planted way better, but that's also not too surprising from a nearly 20-year newer car. After winter I'm looking forward to getting a good comparison between the two.

I agree. I drove a first-generation Boxster at a car control clinic / around Laguna Seca some years ago and I remember it feeling very much like the BRZ-- nimble, well-balanced, forgiving, and slow up hills :P

IIRC it rolled a little more than the BRZ, felt a little heavier than the BRZ, but also felt slightly more agile than the BRZ.

Originally Posted by Overdrive

I also don't care for fake engine noises, though, so I'll eventually be plugging up that sound tube hole in the Toyota once I swap out the stock intake. If it can't make enough noise from the start, don't fake it for me. Better than pumping completely artificial noises through the speakers, though...that's just wrong.

Absolutely plug the sound tube. You can do it really easily with (IIRC) the cover from the lighter socket power port in your glovebox: it happens to fit right into the sound tube opening. Free, 100% reversible, etc. Go for it. Doesn't make the car that much quieter overall but does change the character of the noise in the cabin somewhat.

The sound of the BRZ is OK. It sounds better than a lot of fours, and at some combinations of RPM / throttle position it sounds excited, which is great. Never bothered to do that much about noise though: got a Milltek resonated cat-back which did away with the kind of vacuum-cleaner-like stock sound, but couldn't be bothered to take things any further. None of the fancy header-back exhausts or intakes I listened to really improved anything. I'm also just not a fan of the UEL rumble so that wasn't an option. Most of the setups I listened to just sounded excessively loud and / or raspy.

If only there were a way to make a BRZ sound like a 991 GT3 :P

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

If only there were a way to make a BRZ sound like a 991 GT3 :P

That'd require another 2 cylinders, another 2k of available rpms, and some German magic.

I'm rather disappointed in the sound from the new fours they've started putting in the latest Boxster/Cayman. Just doesn't sing.

Or maybe squeezing a 3 or 3.3 H-6 from a wrecked Subaru in there and avoiding going the Subie-fart route that all the kids seem to love the sound of these days. I really wish I had a sound clip of that Impreza with the six in it. I tell you, sounded like a screamy 911.

If either of my cars could sound like this, I'd drive nothing else, ever.

Skip to 1:20 and crank your volume.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbdMVMl6PE"]AKRAPOVIČ EXHAUST FOR PORSCHE 911 GT3 (991) - YouTube[/ame]

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

That'd require another 2 cylinders, another 2k of available rpms, and some German magic.

I'm rather disappointed in the sound from the new fours they've started putting in the latest Boxster/Cayman. Just doesn't sing.

Or maybe squeezing a 3 or 3.3 H-6 from a wrecked Subaru in there and avoiding going the Subie-fart route that all the kids seem to love the sound of these days. I really wish I had a sound clip of that Impreza with the six in it. I tell you, sounded like a screamy 911.

If either of my cars could sound like this, I'd drive nothing else, ever.

Skip to 1:20 and crank your volume.

Who knows. Maybe Subaru will shove the rumored H-6 DIT that's in development for the Viziv-7 into the next WRX STi and have the sound tuned by Yamaha . A man can dream...

[WolfpackS2k]

^^Sounds pretty nice but honestly I've heard better sounding Porsches running full throttle, with stock intake & exhaust hardware, in person track-side. And I've sat in and aggressively revved an Cayman GT4 with the exhaust baffles open, and the sound is orgasmic for the ears hahaha.

^I mean it would sound nice, but given the design of Subaru's AWD system having a flat 6 sitting smack on top of the front axle would greatly hurt the handling of an STI.

[Norcalkid]

I can't decide, I want all 3. I'm actually being serious here. I'm just guna buy the best condition best priced car I can find. Thought being if I buy it right I can sell it for break even or close. Same thing I do with bikes, ride for a season for the cost of maintenance and tax.

I low balled a BRZ limited today(2013 with 26k on it). Didn't get it(left my #). 07 Corvette(40k on it) I found on the 24th was sold today (was out of town for the holidays). Stopped by a Porsche dealership in the bay on the 27th. They didn't have anything old enough I could afford(not that I was planning to buy from a dealership).

Stopped by Subaru and Toyota and got new prices. Didn't negotiate or anything, just asked what Costco prices were and what promotional financing they are offering. $25,050 for 86 and $25,150 for BRZ premium, 1.9% offered on both (California). I decided not to buy new as I don't really plan on keeping too long.


So ya, Still driving my Scion, haha

[Ganthrithor]

Nothing wrong with continuing to drive your Scion. Remember: you have a car-- you're not in a rush.

Make sure you get a good drive in an example (maybe more than one!) of each type before you make a decision: they're all going to be very different cars to drive. I imagine once you get some wheel time with each of them, probably one will call to you.

Also, random thought, but are there maybe any driving schools nearby where you could book a car control clinic in a similar car? If there's a school that happens to drive what you're looking at, that would be a great way to get a proper demo. It will be expensive, but you'll get a great feel for the car, and getting some good training is never a bad thing!

Skip Barber used to do a high-performance driving course at MRLS in Boxsters, 911s, M3s and such. Not sure if that's still a thing.

[serialk11r]

Normally I would say "just get a Cayman", but as someone trying to sell my FR-S in the Bay Area and seeing the prices here plummeting ( ), I think money is a pretty important factor given just how cheap 2013 twins have gotten. Corvettes are nice and pretty cheap to maintain AFAIK, but they are very big cars which I personally don't like.

Porsches are great out of the box, the interior is good enough, the sound is good, the car is pretty small and nimble. It sounds like you would be content to just buy and drive one. Now that said, I think you really want a 987.2 or 981 as the earlier ones are ...kind of garbage, and the only ones you'll get for 30k are very high mileage, and probably have significant wear on the seats, brakes, transmission, engine etc.

If you buy a lower mileage twin (such as mine :P), you'll have much less car to start with. However, at half the price of a 90k mile Cayman, you would have a lot of money to just send the car to a shop and have them mod it for you, and it would take none of your time beyond buying the parts.

The good things about the twins are:
-A shitload of cargo space so you can drive it anywhere to do anything with it, and surprisingly usable rear seats

-Better fuel economy on shorter trips due to smaller sump, smaller displacement, less weight. Faster warmup so you can step on it sooner. Caymans pull nearly as good mpg on the freeway once they're warmed up, but the oil takes forever to get up to temp because the sump is 10 quarts. It sucks because it takes like 20+ minutes for the oil temp to reach 160F, which is when I feel comfortable stepping on it.

-A lot of choices for parts that you don't need to blow 10s of thousands on, though not as good as the Honda Civic or S2000 or Miata aftermarket obviously

-Surprisingly reasonable power with a tune and exhaust

Since you're not going to the track, the most cost effective thing you can do for more power would be to throw a Jackson Racing supercharger on and call it a day, but you probably aren't interested in the hassle.

If you don't need that much power, just grab an OFT, and take it to a tuner. I was surprisingly happy with a custom throttle map I made and the OFT Stage 1 timing. These engines will put out basically about 220bhp if you do that plus a catback, which is not that bad.

If you like bling you could buy the AP Racing brake kit or the 2017 brakes. Maybe some wheels if you like (Porsche wheels are monstrously expensive). Those would have the bonus of reducing your weight a little making the car faster. Probably not worth the effort.

You could buy a headunit with Android Car for a few hundred and have someone install it for you, which would be a much better infotainment system than the garbage on a 987 Porsche.

All of these things would take about 20 minutes to order online, and then <<1k in labor to pay a shop to install on your car. If it were me, and I were already very content with the FR-S from a test drive, this is what I would do. I know you said you're not interested in mods, but these are all stupid easy mods. Plus, if you aren't keeping the car for long, the FR-S/BRZ has probably hit an "elbow" in its depreciation curve due to the 2017 refresh, and it is probably in much better mechanical shape than a higher mileage older Porsche or Corvette, so you'll lose less money while you do own it. That way if you grow to like the car you can have more money to mod it, or if you decide you want to upgrade you have more money to upgrade.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

If only there were a way to make a BRZ sound like a 991 GT3 :P

Good lord. I tracked one of those this past April at the Auto Club Speedway, and it was probably the most fun I have had in a car. And I've also tracked a 458 and a Cayman R at that same track before. I need that car.

[ST185RC]

Originally Posted by FX86

buy a 370Z...the poor man's porsche

More like make poor would-be porsche owners even poorer.