Official Formula 1 thread

[White64Goat]

Originally Posted by Tgionet

The marshal waving the green flag was 100% in the right. That was the first marshal's post after the incident and indicated the end of the waved double yellow area.

I kind of thought that might be the case, but wouldn't it have been a single yellow flag for a local? Double yellow is usually full course yellow and you need to slow down and be prepared to stop. The fact that (at least at the accident site) the flag stand was a tower and it was pouring the rain, those stands with all the spray were probably almost invisible......maybe the terrain and elevation changes at Suzuka make them more visible and that's why they are elevated as high as the one at the site is.

Just re-watched the video and there were indeed double yellow flags displayed at the flag stand where the incident happened. However, they pulled the double yellows and went back to green before the crane was behind the barriers. It had backed up and was before the flag stand when they waved the green, but not clear of the track. I guess the next question would be is did the 2 preceding flag stands also pull the double yellows at the same time #12 did? If F1 pulled the double yellows at all the preceding stands, I'd say the blame is going to be on them for going green when there was a (10,000lb.?) hunk of metal at the edge of the track and not clear.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Martinius

It was a freak accident unfortunately, which could have been prevented if FIA had thought out the car removal process years ago. Here you have the most technologically advanced impact absorbing barriers, and you put a 6.5 tonne monstrosity with head-level clearance IN FRONT of them, completely negating the purpose of those barriers. It's a bit of a head scratcher, and a shame that one of the drivers had to get gravely injured to start a discussion about it.

Big issue is if the conditions were too bad for the helicopter to fly, the race should have been called.

It's in the FIA regulations that a helicopter be available at all times during practice, quali, and the race.

[Tgionet]

Originally Posted by White64Goat

I kind of thought that might be the case, but wouldn't it have been a single yellow flag for a local? Double yellow is usually full course yellow and you need to slow down and be prepared to stop.

As I understand it, and I may be wrong, waved yellows (single yellow) is for a simple caution, ie. driver rejoining track, while double waved yellows means an active hazard in the area and to be prepared to stop immediately. The safety car seems to take the place of the full course caution. I believe the actual rule is you cannot set a personal best sector under yellow flags. I'll have to take a look at the rules.

[PhoKingCool]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

This isn't unique.

Montoya hit the Jet-Dryer truck
Hiedfield crashed into an emergency vehicle
Not too long ago, the safety car crashed into a race car in WTCC

Anything on a hot racetrack is subject to impact: racecars, safety vehicles, response personnel and unfortunately sometimes... fans in the stands.

If he had that impact in a 1980's or even a 1990's era car, he wouldn't be fighting for his life today. Time of Death would have already been announced.

Valid points.

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Big issue is if the conditions were too bad for the helicopter to fly, the race should have been called.

It's in the FIA regulations that a helicopter be available at all times during practice, quali, and the race.

From what I read on crash.net, it wasn't so much the helicopter couldn't fly as much as the injury sustained was safer in a ambulance instead of flying.. I also don't think conditions were bad enough for the race to be called.. If they had to stay on full wets I'd agree, but I've seen races with more rain then that.. And watching the tape, he clearly came in way to hot.. I know F1 cars need speed to turn properly and brake properly, that it needs the downforce. But that was a hard hit

Also I don't put much into the "lifting the back of the lift up" as people have been saying.. It had a car suspended in mid air and was hit at the counterweight.. Having assembled heavy equipment before and operating it, it doesn't take as much force to lift the back end as people are thinking.. I still have not heard any good news yet.. I hope he at least recovers to live a normal life, his injury is severe so I don't think we will see him in a car again unfortunately

[tyrantcf]

I think we're going to see some changes to the safety car rules pretty soon. Its a miracle we havent seen more incidents like this in recent years.

I'm all for allowing the race to go on and keeping local yellows, but I'm shocked at how seemingly apprehensive the FIA is to send out the safety car when its necessary. Anytime there is equipment or marshalls on the track side of the barriers, I think there should be a safety car.

That being said, I'm not sure newer safety car rules would have affected Bianchi's crash, he may have gone off while behind the safety car just the same. Which wouldnt be a first either.

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

From what I read on crash.net, it wasn't so much the helicopter couldn't fly as much as the injury sustained was safer in a ambulance instead of flying.. I also don't think conditions were bad enough for the race to be called.. If they had to stay on full wets I'd agree, but I've seen races with more rain then that.. And watching the tape, he clearly came in way to hot.. I know F1 cars need speed to turn properly and brake properly, that it needs the downforce. But that was a hard hit

Also I don't put much into the "lifting the back of the lift up" as people have been saying.. It had a car suspended in mid air and was hit at the counterweight.. Having assembled heavy equipment before and operating it, it doesn't take as much force to lift the back end as people are thinking.. I still have not heard any good news yet.. I hope he at least recovers to live a normal life, his injury is severe so I don't think we will see him in a car again unfortunately

In a briefing after the race it was stated that the helicopter didn't land before the race due to weather conditions and so it was not available at any point during the race. It was also mentioned by the skysports teams that the nearest major medical facilities were 40 minutes away (probably more like 25 with lights and sirens).

To me that's just not acceptable, no helicopter at a circuit which is somewhat secluded is just a recipe for disaster.

[Martinius]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

In a briefing after the race it was stated that the helicopter didn't land before the race due to weather conditions and so it was not available at any point during the race. It was also mentioned by the skysports teams that the nearest major medical facilities were 40 minutes away (probably more like 25 with lights and sirens).

To me that's just not acceptable, no helicopter at a circuit which is somewhat secluded is just a recipe for disaster.

Hopefully, the investigation that's launched into this matter will shed light as to whether that was the case, because there seems to be conflicting reports regarding the helicopter (even from the same TV channel, i.e. Martin Brundle and Ted Kravitz from SkySports).

Jules has a difuse axonal injury to the brain, so it looks very bleak at the moment. Richard Hammond had the same injury but the severity of his crash from what I understand was far less. Then again, Jules is infinitely more fit than Hammond...I'm just clutching at straws here...

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

In a briefing after the race it was stated that the helicopter didn't land before the race due to weather conditions and so it was not available at any point during the race. It was also mentioned by the skysports teams that the nearest major medical facilities were 40 minutes away (probably more like 25 with lights and sirens).

To me that's just not acceptable, no helicopter at a circuit which is somewhat secluded is just a recipe for disaster.

That is ridiculous.


I've seen them cancel practice and quali sessions for no heli, but allowing a race to go on?

[Silver Ignition]

Originally Posted by Martinius

Jules has a difuse axonal injury to the brain, so it looks very bleak at the moment. Richard Hammond had the same injury but the severity of his crash from what I understand was far less. Then again, Jules is infinitely more fit than Hammond...I'm just clutching at straws here...

Not looking good... from Wikipedia

The outcome is frequently coma, with over 90% of patients with severe DAI never regaining consciousness.Those who do wake up often remain significantly impaired.

[Tgionet]

http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/2271/

Before the reform frenzy starts

October 7, 2014 / Gary Hartstein
We’re just over 48 hours since Jules’ accident. Still hoping and praying for a good outcome. And of course, by now, the dust is settling, and discourse becomes less emotional, less intense, and more reasoned. I thought I’d take advantage of this period of relative calm to put a few thoughts out there.
The first thing I want to point out is that the three most severe accidents we’ve had since 1994 have all occurred through mechanisms that are not easily predictable. I’ll not go so far as to use the expression “freak accidents”, but being hit in the head with an 800 gm spring, driving into the lifting tailgate of a lorry, or aquaplaning into the exact spot a recovery unit is working are not your standard scenarios.
I say this because we need to have a bit of perspective here. Virtually every weekend we see, often with a quiet “ho hum”, accidents that in a not distant past would no doubt have been fatal. Basically, the things that used to kill and maim drivers have almost been engineered out of the system. Fire? (Williamson, Courage, Bandini to name a few)? We just don’t see it anymore (yes we had a few, but none with any significant consequences). Frontal collisions? (Rindt) We shrug off the most spectacular. Side impacts (Senna)? Ehhhhh… Flying rollovers? Shaken, but not stirred.
Not only do we almost have to invent bizarre ways to get hurt, but when someone DOES fall victim to an unusual accident, the governing body has shown itself fairly adept at acting appropriately. Felipe’s accident? Zylon visor reinforcements. Etc etc.
Jules’ accident was INCREDIBLY violent. It is a miracle he is alive, purely and simply. And this is a testimony to the entire system. Where should we look if we want to find out if there actually IS anything to change?
To start with, I’ll harken back to one of my pet peeves.
Those of you who saw the video no doubt were impressed by just how fast that Marussia was winging it as it streaked through the runoff area into the JCB. I surely was. And I was all the more impressed that:

• Jules was certainly aware of the risk at that point of aquaplaning (and was no doubt told of SUT’s off)
• there were double yellow flags displayed at one, and possibly two, upstream marshal posts.

For the sake of my sanity, I’ll point out again that double yellows mean that the track might be obstructed, that there are HUMAN BEINGS WORKING trackside of the Armco, and to BE PREPARED TO STOP.
I’ve been a passenger in an F1 car, and can confirm that the brakes are phenomenal. That said, given the water on the circuit, given the loading on the car through corners 6 and 7, and given the speed of that Marussia, it is indisputable that Jules carried MUCH TOO MUCH speed into that corner. By definition. He is instructed (by the flags) to slow enough to be able to stop, yet he was fast enough to aquaplane. Those are mutually exclusive options. Period.
I’ve been saying since 2010 that flag discipline is deteriorating, and it’s deteriorating fast. And no one is making properly vigorous efforts to re-establish it.
At every F1 drivers briefing, the drivers hound Charlie for a number – “how fast can i go under yellows?” or “how fast under double yellows?”. Or even, “will I be penalised if I do 0.2 sec less than the last time thru that sector…”
THEY’RE MISSING THE POINT. AND BECAUSE WE’RE NOT INSISTING ENOUGH ON THE RIGHT ANSWER, BAD THINGS HAPPEN.
The point is that the speed that’s appropriate under double yellows is variable. It’s not a speed limit, it’s a warning. Just ahead you might have nowhere to go. Or, just ahead someone’s uncle, brother, father is pushing one of your colleague’s cars off the circuit (remember the marshal whose legs you broke in Monaco Pastor? When you kept your foot in it through double yellows into Casino? I do).
I bet that the “appropriate” speed through T6-7 Sunday was probably something like 80-100 km/h – something like pit lane speed. Had drivers done that, the absurdity would have rapidly become apparent, and race control would have had little choice but to deploy the SC.
Disrespect for flag discipline is not a minor issue. It kills and injures people. If flags are respected, things get remarkably safer. If these flags had been respected, it is hard to imagine this accident happening, at least with this kind of energy.
Before we start changing everything, wrapping JCB’s in tech pro, putting SC’s out every time someone’s in the armco, let’s correctly apply the spectacularly effective safety system already in place. And let’s start by making sure drivers actually respect the SPIRIT (“be prepared to stop”) and not the LETTER (“how many tenths down do I have to be to not get a stop-go penalty?”) of the safety regulations.
Oh and one last thing: please Jules, get better fast.

[headlikeahole]

^^^ Could not have said it better.

That reminds me of a call Lewis made to his team at the begining of the race where he said "safety car needs to go faster". Not long after that I beleive it was Ericsson lost control and spun (UNDER SC). Obviously it's in the driver's nature to have this attitute, however a part of me thinks it's been so long since we've lost a driver during a race, that maybe they are getting complacent.

[Silver Ignition]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

...however a part of me thinks it's been so long since we've lost a driver during a race, that maybe they are getting complacent.

May 1st, 1994 =(

[White64Goat]

Then I'd say that F1 needs to revisit their flagging/flags and make adjustments as needed to include weather conditions. No way that area should have gone back to green just because the front end loader had moved back to an area behind the flag stand (not off track). It's just common sense that with a 5 or 6 ton piece of equipment removing another wrecked car, that it needs to be off track and behind the barriers before turning that area back to green (even if it wasn't raining) in my opinion.