Recommended Camber for tracking

[mav1178]

I don't need a suggestion at this time, I do think the OP needs one though.

-alex

[Hags86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you can give me a better idea of your experience, setup, and preferences, I can probably give you an alignment suggestion

Happy to do so Mike.

Experience. Have done a few track days, one of which with instructors. Will be doing another HPDE course in about four weeks and hope to do about 6 track days per year. e.g doing my best to 'focus on the driver' and I know that this is the area that will lead to the greatest reduction in lap time.

I record my runs on my AIM Solo so I can improve my technique.

Setup. Stock motor/exhaust and I have no desire to add more power. I want any improvements to come from driver experience and handling improvements. Current have Essex Sprint front brakes and intend to invest in a set of MCA coil overs in the near future (hence the camber questions).

I've got a set of semi-slicks and intend to use them on the track only (stock tyres on the road). TRD door stabilisers, Enkei rims and that's about it.

I've got an engineering background and enjoy the technical aspects of modifying a car to see how it responds as much as driving it.

Preferences. There is a track about 2 hours out of Melbourne Australia called Winton that I'll be focusing on. They have open tracks nearly every Friday so is very accessible. It's a very technical / low speed track. I have posted a pic of the track for reference; I noticed a lot of mid-late corner understeer through turns 7-8-9. With the stock setup you need lots of patience and feels like you are driving well below the ability of the car as the front looses traction through this series of long corners. This is why I'd like to tweak camber and thought if I'm going to put some money down so I can adjust camber, I may as well get the coil overs with the camber adjustment as part of the package.

Additionally I have driven the BRZ and prefer the stiffer feel that it has over my Toyota GTS, again if I'm going to increase the spring rate then may as well throw on the coil overs.

As I said - as a daily driver I only want to drop 15-20mm but am happy to spend a few hours before/after each track day to adjust camber, toe (if required), and swap tyres & pads etc. I'm definitely not prepared to adjust ride height every time.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hags86

Happy to do so Mike.

Experience. Have done a few track days, one of which with instructors. Will be doing another HPDE course in about four weeks and hope to do about 6 track days per year. e.g doing my best to 'focus on the driver' and I know that this is the area that will lead to the greatest reduction in lap time.

I record my runs on my AIM Solo so I can improve my technique.

Setup. Stock motor/exhaust and I have no desire to add more power. I want any improvements to come from driver experience and handling improvements. Current have Essex Sprint front brakes and intend to invest in a set of MCA coil overs in the near future (hence the camber questions).

I've got a set of semi-slicks and intend to use them on the track only (stock tyres on the road). TRD door stabilisers, Enkei rims and that's about it.

I've got an engineering background and enjoy the technical aspects of modifying a car to see how it responds as much as driving it.

Preferences. There is a track about 2 hours out of Melbourne Australia called Winton that I'll be focusing on. They have open tracks nearly every Friday so is very accessible. It's a very technical / low speed track. I have posted a pic of the track for reference; I noticed a lot of mid-late corner understeer through turns 7-8-9. With the stock setup you need lots of patience and feels like you are driving well below the ability of the car as the front looses traction through this series of long corners. This is why I'd like to tweak camber and thought if I'm going to put some money down so I can adjust camber, I may as well get the coil overs with the camber adjustment as part of the package.

Additionally I have driven the BRZ and prefer the stiffer feel that it has over my Toyota GTS, again if I'm going to increase the spring rate then may as well throw on the coil overs.

As I said - as a daily driver I only want to drop 15-20mm but am happy to spend a few hours before/after each track day to adjust camber, toe (if required), and swap tyres & pads etc. I'm definitely not prepared to adjust ride height every time.

What tires, model, and size, and what size wheels are you using?

Do you have access to a pyrometer?

Are you willing to spend on additional parts for true alignment capability before getting your coilovers?

Do you have access to an alignment shop that is sophisticated enough to know how to shim and play with tolerances?

[Hags86]

What tires, model, and size, and what size wheels are you using?
Enkei RFP1 17x8 +45mm with Yokohama Advan A048 215/45 tyres for the track and will move to Advan A050 225/45 next time.
Enkei RFP1 17x7.5 +48mm with stock tyres for public roads.

Do you have access to a pyrometer? Will be buying one shortly.

Are you willing to spend on additional parts for true alignment capability before getting your coilovers? Probably, what did you have in mind?

Do you have access to an alignment shop that is sophisticated enough to know how to shim and play with tolerances? Hmm maybe. There is a race car prep shop nearby who outsource maintenance for a bunch of Audi race teams and people with serious dedicated track cars. I'd be happy to engage and pay for those services for an initial setup and major changes, but I don't see me paying for this on a regular basis.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hags86

What tires, model, and size, and what size wheels are you using?
Enkei RFP1 17x8 +45mm with Yokohama Advan A048 215/45 tyres for the track and will move to Advan A050 225/45 next time.
Enkei RFP1 17x7.5 +48mm with stock tyres for public roads.

Do you have access to a pyrometer? Will be buying one shortly.

Are you willing to spend on additional parts for true alignment capability before getting your coilovers? Probably, what did you have in mind?

Do you have access to an alignment shop that is sophisticated enough to know how to shim and play with tolerances? Hmm maybe. There is a race car prep shop nearby who outsource maintenance for a bunch of Audi race teams and people with serious dedicated track cars. I'd be happy to engage and pay for those services for an initial setup and major changes, but I don't see me paying for this on a regular basis.

For now, this is the most cost effective solution.

Get two pairs (4 total) of camber bolts, and max out your front camber via the bolts. 0 out the toe in the front, and set rear toe according to preference (I prefer 0, but that makes for a fairly loose, throttle-steerable car).

This will initially serve to preserve tire life, rather than maximize grip. You'll need camber plates, coilovers, and possibly rear lower control arms to get maximize grip later on. IMO, it's not worth investing in alignment adjustment parts right now, as they'll become mostly moot after you get your other mods.

We'll revisit this as I get more feedback from you, and as you get more mods. Don't ever hesitate to tag me in a post to get my attention if you have any questions.

[FastLane1000]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

For now, this is the most cost effective solution.

Get two pairs (4 total) of camber bolts, and max out your front camber via the bolts. 0 out the toe in the front, and set rear toe according to preference (I prefer 0, but that makes for a fairly loose, throttle-steerable car).

This will initially serve to preserve tire life, rather than maximize grip. You'll need camber plates, coilovers, and possibly rear lower control arms to get maximize grip later on. IMO, it's not worth investing in alignment adjustment parts right now, as they'll become mostly moot after you get your other mods.

We'll revisit this as I get more feedback from you, and as you get more mods. Don't ever hesitate to tag me in a post to get my attention if you have any questions.

Do the same camber bolts work in the upper and lower holes? Seems I remember them being different.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FastLane1000

Do the same camber bolts work in the upper and lower holes? Seems I remember them being different.

Technically, any bolt that will hold the torque will work, but this is a hack to get more camber cheap, not a long term solution.

[FastLane1000]

Hmm, Yeah I want more camber cheap before I kill the shoulders on my expensive tires. I believe they are in the bottom holes cause the tabs are faced in. If anyone knows what will work in the top holes that are actual camber bolts with tabs and lock nuts let me know. I've enjoyed this thread. Thanks.

[autobrz]

I don't really think they're a hack. Here is what I bought:

top 16mm bolts: WHI KCA416 Whiteline Camber Bolts 16mm Subaru BRZ 2013 / Scion FR-S 2013
(they are actually made by SPC, so find the SPC ones for cheaper if you can)

bottom 14mm bolts: 81260 SPC EZ Cam XR Camber Bolt Kit

they will make your expensive tires happy...

[autobrz]

...

[FastLane1000]

Originally Posted by autobrz

I don't really think they're a hack. Here is what I bought:

top 16mm bolts: WHI KCA416 Whiteline Camber Bolts 16mm Subaru BRZ 2013 / Scion FR-S 2013
(they are actually made by SPC, so find the SPC ones for cheaper if you can)

bottom 14mm bolts: SPC EZ Cam XR 81270 Caster/Camber Adjusting Kit

they will make your expensive tires happy...

Thanks just ordered the 14mm set, 81260 not 81270 How much camber did you get with that setup?

[Hags86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Technically, any bolt that will hold the torque will work, but this is a hack to get more camber cheap, not a long term solution.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. I agree with your long term solution and the principle of avoiding inexpensive but wasteful interim costs (e.g. fixed offset strut mounts, offset bushes etc).

What I liked about the coil over solution was the repeatability and relative ease of switching from say 0 or -0.5 degrees on the road and -2.5 or -3.0 degrees on the track. I don't think this is true for the double camber bolt solution. I don't want to be doing a wheel alignment after I change back/forward.

I'm as much concerned as excessive tyre wear on the outside of my track tyres as I am for inside wear on my road tyres. It's a daily driver after all.

$3k for a set of coilovers isn't a problem at the moment, I'm going to be heading there anyway, I'd like to drop it 15-20mm in any case and the MCA setup seems to have a repeatable way to move camber back and forward so I'm still leaning to the coilovers as a next step.

The intent was get the alignment shop to set it up for 0 degrees and -2.5 degrees I'll take reference locations and swap back and forward for each track day.

[GTM_Challenge]

While a coilover setup offer the ability to change alignment settings on the fly for intended uses (street/daily), I can't think of a single person that uses them that way. All the customers we have set the alignment either for the track or for the street and just deal with it for the opposite (I.E. running a street alignment at the track (though most just run the track alignment everywhere)).

An aggressive track alignment will actually yield pretty darn good tire wear while on the street (assuming you track it often enough and don't have any crazy toe settings going on. Toe kills tires more than camber does - and does so much more quickly as well.

[autobrz]

Originally Posted by FastLane1000

Thanks just ordered the 14mm set, How much camber did you get with that setup?

I got 2.4* with both 16mm and 14mm bolts. with just the 16mm upper bolts, I got 1.2* and the stock tires were still rolling over on the skid pad that I made out of an empty parking lot.