Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[rice_classic]

:OFF TOPIC: Keep calm and keep scrolling.

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Uh, yes you can, when you talk about WWII, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. It's a fallacy to think anything w/ F1 or Hitler is a fallacy. Ad Hitlerum is itself a fallacy but a convenient restriction for those not actually well versed in philosophy or logic. /end OT rant.

However, we were not talking about F1. So dropping F1 into the discussion is a false comparative. Just as if someone drops the "Hitler card" when discussing something unrelated to WWII, the Nazis or that era. We are talking about inexpensive road cars. Bringing F1 into the debate is a logical fallacy. F1 is about as far away from traditional road cars as Hitler is from ACORN. /end OT RANT

Nobody is arguing with you about the eventual limitations of FWD either. Sure some folks defend it (maybe more than what is justified) but they are doing so in the realm of its limitations. It seems like you're attacking a false narrative. I'm a rabid FWD guy and I agree on all accounts of what you say regarding it. But nowhere in this thread has anyone even alluded to FWD being the answer when 800hp and an open cockpit are involved.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

"Judge, I have no further questions"



Wow, that's a nice strawman. How long did it take you fit all that stuffing inside?

A) Porsche put their engine in the wrong place but has "made it work" and made it work quite well. However, that's not a proper argument for putting the engine behind the rear axle. The sentence: "because Porsche does it" isn't a valid argument for it being the preferable or not. There's a lot of Porsche engineering I do not want, so the "because porsche does it" argument could be used universally by both of us to prove our opposing views.

B) here's my own strawman: Formula cars don't use Mac Struts and Colin Chapman didn't use them on his race cars. Well that must mean that they are no good and not suitable for racing! (which of course isn't true.)

Edit: B2) The Ferrari 458 has double wishbones up front so they must be superior!!



Are you sure? Are you sssuuuuuurreeee? Porsche has bean counters too.

Porsche also hast to consider "change of design" as well. They have a pretty dedicated subscriber base that is sensitive to change, part of the reason why every 911 looks the same (unless you're a Porsche enthusiast).

Probably not worth the effort but, what the hey:

Unsprung weight is a different concept from weight, per se. A heavier suspension could have lower unsprung weight than a lighter suspension.

An Audi A4 has double wishbone front suspension that is definitely much heavier than a McPherson strut. It's made from cast iron.

"Dynamic" camber "curves" means nothing in a fixed street suspension.

Porsche fit McPherson struts all round to their mid engined Cayman until this year. Now the bean counters want the Boxster/Cayman to have the same suspension design as the 911.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Probably not worth the effort

Affirmative.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Mac Struts do not have a dynamic camber curve. The geometry doesn't lie. This camber gain you're thinking of is extremely small and doesn't take into account body roll and is negligible (comparatively) in any lowered/stiffened vehicle. Also it's not a dynamic curve "per se" as it's only the result of the lca pivot from below the horizontal to the horizontal but after it passes above horizontal (most Mac setups have the LCA at or above the horizontal) there is relatively no further camber gain (gain in negative camber in relation to body).

Most strut cars I've looked at have the LCA start below horizontal unless they've been slammed. My old jetta was lowered like 3.5" and the front arms were just barely above horizontal.

Our cars only have about 2.5" of bump travel from stock ride height so the arm doesn't have to be far below horizontal to keep the geometry gaining camber under compression.

You're totally right that once the arm passes horizontal you lose camber, that's why the central point of my argument has been about keeping the arm at or below horizontal if you want to gain camber.

Double wishbones aren't magically different, they're just opposite when they have a shorter UCA. They lose camber as the LCA/wishbone approaches horizontal, so if they start below horizontal they actually lose camber until the LCA passes horizontal. If you have a longer UCA it'll behave exactly like a strut car does.

[Anaxilus]

@ rice

Pol Pot wasn't in that era. Can I talk about the art school in Vienna? Is that okay w/ you?? How about bunkers or Multiple Sclerosis? Jesus...you're out of your depth, don't pretend to be an expert in something you aren't. 90% of the talk in this thread involves analogies, all analogies are logically flawed, you should ask a mod to delete the thread to appease you misunderstanding of logic. /end OT RANT 2

The secondary topic is chassis layout. F1 cars have a chassis layout. Ergo, relevant. I'm not 'defending' or 'attacking' anything. I'm asking people who seem to jump in here w/o actually reading anything to just pay attention to the details before they make wild claims or conclusions (which this thread has a few of) about FWD being superior/equal to, etc, whatever.

The fact that people still jump in here to talk about the video and make wild claims about it is ridiculous. One video as the FRS losing to a Fiesta by 1 sec. Another video has the BRZ beating that Fiesta by 4 secs on the same track. There is nothing relevant to the OPs video at all because the drivers are just bad. Which is why people have to keep interest going by talking about chassis/engine layout. Again, relevant to bringing up F1 entirely because that is the pinnacle of automotive performance in a competitive environment despite all the regulations. Obviously, if you have figured out FWD is not ideal in many circumstances, you shouldn't be bothered by anything I've said. Unless...

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

@ rice

Pol Pot wasn't in that era. Can I talk about the art school in Vienna? Is that okay w/ you?? How about bunkers or Multiple Sclerosis? Jesus...you're out of your depth, don't pretend to be an expert in something you aren't. 90% of the talk in this thread involves analogies, all analogies are logically flawed, you should ask a mod to delete the thread to appease you misunderstanding of logic. /end OT RANT 2

And now with the personal attacks. Can't debate like an adult, accuses me of being out of my depth. And what does Jesus have to do with any of this? Was Pol Pot Christian?

[bcj]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Hitler

Sorry, thread has reached the end of the internet.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Hitler

^FTFU

Yes, thank riceboy for that. He introduced Hitler by saying you shouldn't introduce Hitler. How ironic (that's one word that could be used). Actually I'd like to thank ricer for killing this thread which should have died long ago.

@Rice; the only one accusing you are your own arguments and analysis. I can't be responsible for what you say, sorry. Try as many red herrings as you like.

[Minovsky]

Owell doesnt matter there will always be faster cars.. i love my car for what it is and how much fun to drive.. so in my books it wins alot.

[regal]

IF F1 is out how about an Aerial Atom? Would you want a FWD Atom? Nope. Would you want an Atom with McPherson struts? Nope.

All cars are a compromise.

For less than $30k this car has an amazing chassis. It also has a great manual transmission and rear LSD thrown in as a bonus. Does that matter to most people who will never modify or never take the car 9/10's. Nope.

But in a decade from now when you have some spare change to build the car of your dreams what would you rather start with an '86 or a dam Ford Escort/ I mean Fiesta ?

[mufasis]

Ok so here is my .02 cents.

I just test drove a Fiesta ST and all I can say is wow. This little car might not have the interior or the handling of my beloved BRZ but man this car is a BLAST to drive. Its just as light as the BRZ but makes great torque down low. I know its FWD but this car has tons of grip as well. It's not quite as sharp as the BRZ but it still has amazing turn in. I'm almost thinking of selling my car and picking up a Fiesta, thats how much fun this car is. I'm not biased either. I have had an 03 wrx, 03 evo 8, 05 sti, 06 e46 m3, 2010 evo x, and now my 2013 BRZ. I've also had a 06 yamaha r6. I could honestly say that the Fiesta ST is just as fun as any of my cars and the car definitely has some pull. I'm thinking of buying one myself. I really enjoy my BRZ but the lack of low end torque is really a bummer...

[Morg]

Originally Posted by mufasis

Ok so here is my .02 cents.

I just test drove a Fiesta ST and all I can say is wow. This little car might not have the interior or the handling of my beloved BRZ but man this car is a BLAST to drive. Its just as light as the BRZ but makes great torque down low. I know its FWD but this car has tons of grip as well. It's not quite as sharp as the BRZ but it still has amazing turn in. I'm almost thinking of selling my car and picking up a Fiesta, thats how much fun this car is. I'm not biased either. I have had an 03 wrx, 03 evo 8, 05 sti, 06 e46 m3, 2010 evo x, and now my 2013 BRZ. I've also had a 06 yamaha r6. I could honestly say that the Fiesta ST is just as fun as any of my cars and the car definitely has some pull. I'm thinking of buying one myself. I really enjoy my BRZ but the lack of low end torque is really a bummer...

Gotta say, I think a lot of people write this car off way too soon because "FWD" or "4 doors".


Looks are subjective.


As far as fun cars go, anyone driving either of the 86's or either of the ST's... Is doing just fine.


I don't think you can go wrong with any of the 4.


That said, after a lot of test driving and shopping.. I ultimately once again didn't opt for an '86... I picked up a Fiesta ST.. and maaaaan am I glad I did.


Been driving a Green Envy with Recaro package since November. Best automotive purchase to date and to be honest I never saw myself getting into a hatch back or FWD. This car is nimble as !@#$ and handles fantastic. It really doesn't feel like what you'd expect out of a FWD. Based on most of the dyno results I've seen, Ford's also underrating them. (Maybe so they don't compete with Focus ST sales anymore than they already do?)


Personally, I think any automotive enthusiast owes it to themselves to get behind the wheel of the 86 and the FiST regardless of whether you intend to purchase either. At least drive em.


I'd love to have an 86 in the garage too. But just as I would expect most guys on this forum would pick the 86 every day of the week... I feel the same about my ST. I felt great behind the wheel of the 86, but I knew the ST was the right car for me.


I don't feel the whole ST vs 86 vibe, I don't think they're really competitors. They quite different. They are just two different solutions to the need for affordable FUN. both offer a very comparable amount of excitement imho.


Great time to be an enthusiast, that's for sure.

[Purdue FR-S]

Got to drive the Fiesta ST around Ford's test track once. Not a bad little car.

Very responsive, sharp handling, more power than I expected.

What killed me however was how cheap it felt. The plastic bits that you touch, the overall car itself (i mean....it is an entry model car afterall), and the shifter/transmission was sluggish and rubbery.... sort of disappoint.

Overall still a great car. But is it worth the $6k premium over the base model when it still shares a lot of the same cheapness? ... hard to justify. I'd be happier paying 17 or 18 i think.

[DarkSunrise]

I've got to drive one of these Fiesta ST's to see what the noise is about. Sounds like a fun little car. Top Gear's Speed Week placed it in the final 3 amongst some other more expensive cars, so that's impressive.

That said, we just had a bunch of snow out here and I was in my FR-S this morning having a blast powersliding around corners on my way to work, giggling like an idiot the whole way. Not sure I'd want to give up RWD anytime soon.