Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by abraxis

So you are in some alternate universe where sequentials and DCTs that have to be manually shifted otherwise they stay in one gear are called 'automatic'. Got it. I must have missed that wormhole. I've included a reference to our definition here in the Milky Way Galaxy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission

Ummmmmm....




Dual-clutch transmissions[edit]

Main article: Dual-clutch transmission
A dual-clutch transmission, or DCT (sometimes referred to as a twin-clutch transmission or double-clutch transmission), is a modern type of semi-automatic transmission and electrohydraulic manual transmission. It uses two separate clutches for odd and even gear sets. It can fundamentally be described as two separate manual transmissions (with their respective clutches) contained within one housing, and working as one unit. They are usually operated in a fully automatic mode, and many also have the ability to allow the driver to manually shift gears in semi-automatic mode, albeit still using the transmission's electro-hydraulics.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by abraxis

So you are in some alternate universe where sequentials and DCTs that have to be manually shifted otherwise they stay in one gear are called 'automatic'. Got it. I must have missed that wormhole. I've included a reference to our definition here in the Milky Way Galaxy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-F1-ca...-little-easier

If I understand it right, with a DCT you are manually selecting the gear, but not manually engaging the clutch. That might be incorrect though.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

If I understand it right, with a DCT you are manually selecting the gear, but not manually engaging the clutch. That might be incorrect though.

Correct. That's why clutch pedals are not the determining factor in what defines an 'automatic'. The principal determining gear selection is the deciding factor. Most serious modern race transmissions have no clutch pedal and can NOT be selected automatically, only the user can select the gears. DCTs and SMTs were designed to be operated by the user manually selecting gears, auto modes were added for convenience in mass market adoption. Torque converter automatics were originally designed to be operated automatically (hence the term 'hydramatic' or 'automatic') with the added feature of manually selecting gears later on for sportier enthusiasts. One was designed with the intent to eliminate gear selection (auto), the others were designed to increase the speed and accuracy of manual gear selection (DCT/SMT). At best, these are semi-automatic transmissions. The modifier added to differentiate them from automatic transmissions. For more, see semi-auto versus full auto firearms.

Either way, a DCT transmission and a torque converter transmission would be two very different experiences in the Supra. I wouldn't necessarily rule out a stick shift option just yet either.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Correct. That's why clutch pedals are not the determining factor in what defines an 'automatic'. The principal determining gear selection is the deciding factor. Most serious modern race transmissions have no clutch pedal and can NOT be selected automatically, only the user can select the gears. DCTs and SMTs were designed to be operated by the user manually selecting gears, auto modes were added for convenience in mass market adoption. Torque converter automatics were originally designed to be operated automatically (hence the term 'hydramatic' or 'automatic') with the added feature of manually selecting gears later on for sportier enthusiasts. One was designed with the intent to eliminate gear selection (auto), the others were designed to increase the speed and accuracy of manual gear selection (DCT/SMT). At best, these are semi-automatic transmissions. The modifier added to differentiate them from automatic transmissions. For more, see semi-auto versus full auto firearms.

Either way, a DCT transmission and a torque converter transmission would be two very different experiences in the Supra. I wouldn't necessarily rule out a stick shift option just yet either.

Sure, I see your point, the term Semi-auto jives with me. Will some mass production DCTs actually let you stay in 1st gear, redlining, without eventually and automatically forcing a downshift into 2nd gear?

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Sure, I see your point, the term Semi-auto jives with me. Will some mass production DCTs actually let you stay in 1st gear, redlining, without eventually and automatically forcing a downshift into 2nd gear?

My friend's M3 DCT bounces off the rev limiter. Same for my SMT.

[gymratter]

take this with a grain of salt, but supposedly the car is going to look close to this.



and the Z4.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by gymratter

take this with a grain of salt, but supposedly the car is going to look close to this.



and the Z4.

I think we all could live with that. Not that I can afford one...

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Any indication of price yet? In canadian dollars preferably lol

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Any indication of price yet? In canadian dollars preferably lol

$50k-$60k USD or $62,502 - $75,003 CAD

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by gymratter

$50k-$60k USD or $62,502 - $75,003 CAD

I continue to struggle with the notion of pricing beyond $50K. The C7, GT350, SS 1LE, 440i M Sport, G60 Red Sport AWD, etc., are all in the $50-60K range, most have back seats, or lots of luxury, tons of performance, and / or V8s.

Basically, people have a ton of choice in this pricing space.

I'm trying to work out how Toyota will sell this with 350-400 hp for more than $45K? Will there be enough interest beyond enthusiast to sustain sales for what will likely be 8-10 years of production with a refresh in-between?

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

I continue to struggle with the notion of pricing beyond $50K. The C7, GT350, SS 1LE, 440i M Sport, G60 Red Sport AWD, etc., are all in the $50-60K range, most have back seats, or lots of luxury, tons of performance, and / or V8s.

Basically, people have a ton of choice in this pricing space.

I'm trying to work out how Toyota will sell this with 350-400 hp for more than $45K? Will there be enough interest beyond enthusiast to sustain sales for what will likely be 8-10 years of production with a refresh in-between?

i was just using numbers quoted by Alex Chen, but i agree with you. they need to be careful on how they price this thing.

on a different note, i like this rendering the best.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gymratter

$50k-$60k USD or $62,502 - $75,003 CAD

How did you get the Canadian values? Just applied the exchange rate? That isn't how it works.


If $50 to $60K there it would probably be more like $55 to $65K here. We are usually about 10% higher in price for any vehicle.

[vh_supra26]

A dedicated Tokyo Motor Show 2017 page on the Official Toyota Global Newsroom:

http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/tms2017/

It shows 9 debuts. Hopefully the Supra is one of them!

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Correct. That's why clutch pedals are not the determining factor in what defines an 'automatic'. The principal determining gear selection is the deciding factor. Most serious modern race transmissions have no clutch pedal and can NOT be selected automatically, only the user can select the gears. DCTs and SMTs were designed to be operated by the user manually selecting gears, auto modes were added for convenience in mass market adoption. Torque converter automatics were originally designed to be operated automatically (hence the term 'hydramatic' or 'automatic') with the added feature of manually selecting gears later on for sportier enthusiasts. One was designed with the intent to eliminate gear selection (auto), the others were designed to increase the speed and accuracy of manual gear selection (DCT/SMT). At best, these are semi-automatic transmissions. The modifier added to differentiate them from automatic transmissions. For more, see semi-auto versus full auto firearms.

We may have had this discussion before.
When driving my mum's Yaris, which is an automatic, I play around with the "gear" selector. That is, I will force the gearbox down a gear for engine braking or approaching a steep (for the Yaris) incline. So is this an auto or not?
If I leave a dct transmission in auto mode is it not an auto?
"Most serious modern race transmissions have no clutch pedal and can NOT be selected automatically" sure but the driver is not changing the gear; they are choosing the gear. S/he is flicking a switch.

"A dual-clutch transmission, (DCT) (sometimes referred to as a twin-clutch transmission or double-clutch transmission), is a type of automatic transmission or automated automotive transmission."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

For more, see semi-auto versus fully automatic washing machines.