Effective NA Power Mods

[stevo_12v]

Like I said, if you have the time, and the money?? to do it yourself. Do it.
Couldn't care less what any of the skeptics say, end of the day I've paid-to-play, you obviously haven't
If you suspect dyno shenanigans, spend your hard earned and prove the dyno figures wrong lol.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by justatroll

I have faster track times (same track) with my 71 Porsche 914 than I do with my stock BRZ.
Does that mean my 71 VW Bus motor has more HP?


So what was the point?


I am just skeptical after the BRZ-dude with his NA 212 HP "Dyno sheets".
Once we called him on it and got him on another dyno, we never heard back from him.


I suspect dyno shenanigans again.

Would appear that the accepted average for a stock dyno would be 155 to 160. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=48485&page=2


I personally have no trust in dyno readings anyway since I have seen the same car on the same day show a 40hp difference between two different dynos. There is simply too much variation between different units and to easily manipulated to use it as a comparative device. They are the equivalent to using a tape measure made out of silly putty. If it is hot you get 1 1/2"s. If it is cold you get 3/4". If you want more you pull harder and get 12"s.

They serve a real and practical purpose when tuning the same car and seeing the gains (or loses) but that is where they end as a measuring tool. Unless all dynos were set to the exact same calibration and the method of calculating the numbers is exactly the same they cannot be relied on to compare one car to another.


It is pretty easy to pick and chose what data you want when using the info from a different car on a different machine.
I can say baseline is 130





Or that it is 160 just by puling up different sheets.






Hell I could even say that it is 190 if I post up the right sheet. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30417

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by stevo_12v

Possibly doable, depends how much money you want to sink into the engine.
My results, on pump gas(Shell V-Power). Engine is bone stock; unopened. Just a bunch of bolt-ons and tune.

(~130 hp) Baseline - STOCK 86(not my car btw, but bone stock 86)
Its the light-blue dotted line - ignore the solid line


(201.9 hp) Current dyno(last week)


I'm going to switch out my 3in HKS Single back to my 2.5in HKS Spec-L. Car response feels a tiny bit sluggish, and the exhaust is ridiculously loud. Possibly free up some hp too(HOPEFULLY).

Just caught this when grabbing the pic. Why are we ignoring the solid blue line on the low one but accepting it on the higher one? If using the same reading for both I see a stock car at 179 not 130 or your car at 190 not 201.

[stevo_12v]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Just caught this when grabbing the pic. Why are we ignoring the solid blue line on the low one but accepting it on the higher one? If using the same reading for both I see a stock car at 179 not 130 or your car at 190 not 201.

Was a comparison from a previous tune. Unlike some other people who like to do a single tune; then bag peoples results, I've always had the car re-tuned when something needed replacing or upgraded. I linked that old comparison pic from my build thread.

Cars' going for a re-tune tomorrow for the Spec-L incidentally

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by stevo_12v

Was a comparison from a previous tune. Unlike some other people who like to do a single tune; then bag peoples results, I've always had the car re-tuned when something needed replacing or upgraded. I linked that old comparison pic from my build thread.

Cars' going for a re-tune tomorrow for the Spec-L incidentally

Thanks. I was truly confused why the different lines were used. But you don't have a baseline for your own car?

[steve99]

Originally Posted by stevo_12v

Like I said, if you have the time, and the money?? to do it yourself. Do it.
Couldn't care less what any of the skeptics say, end of the day I've paid-to-play, you obviously haven't
If you suspect dyno shenanigans, spend your hard earned and prove the dyno figures wrong lol.

So what did you find made the extra power after header tune exhaust ?


Assume you started with normal header exhaust tune intake, then added intake manifold ? throttle body ?


Not sure of your other mods but cannot see anything else in list that would add power.


unless you have cams heads etc.

[stevo_12v]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Thanks. I was truly confused why the different lines were used. But you don't have a baseline for your own car?

Nah, never bothered with a baseline for mine. When I got around to taking the car for its first tune(I had just had the headers/overpipe put on - required a tune(P0351/352 code), it was already basically modded(Panel, HKS Front Pipe, HKS CBE). Already had the catback fitted.

Successive re-tunes where done(not in order, but you get the idea)

- Crawford BPB install
- TODA TB Install
- TorqueSolutions TB Spacer
- Changing from TRD to AVO dry panel filter
- Shell V-Power(previously used United P100; that was phased out)
- USDM TRD airbox
- Fluidampr + GReddy lightweight pulley install
- Changing from AVO dry panel to HKS Super Hybrid
- 4.556 Final Drive

Anything which I thought would have changed any performance of the car I wanted to get a re-tune. If not for the fact for more power but to see if the mod did any actual change in output.

[churchx]

What was the dyno type? I'm thinking that FD is main culprit for such drastic difference over completely stock baseline. Even if doing run in same gear, you DO have different gearing.

[JDM4E]

Originally Posted by stevo_12v

Couldn't care less what any of the skeptics say, end of the day I've paid-to-play, you obviously haven't

I think that people here have a respect for your build, and while I cannot talk for others, I think people are even more excited for the JUN part. But the gap between stock and your gain is really suspicious, and personally, since you didn't dyno your car stock, verifying or discarding the 50% increase would be beneficial not even for the community but most importantly for you.
The easiest if anything would be to find a stock car and dyno it in same conditions at the same time with yours. At least. Perhaps in different place than your tuner, but not necessary.
Since that there are quite a lot of factors for different number readings, and the date of the tune of the stock car is quite old, it can easily be that the operator (or even some other person) have the car in different gear, set some compensations, have slippage, etc etc etc.
Personally, I have no doubts that your car is making what you claiming. But if we are to assume that the 130 is stock to yours on the exactly the same conditions - thats seems unlikely. Not that you are doing that on purpose, but that there is some variable involved you are not aware of. Hell, even the tuner can be biased for "look how good I tuned that" (only an example).

Definitely interested in other development of your car!

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by justatroll

And dont forget the headlights which sap more power from the engine than you could gain from some of the more popular mods.

And I will call BS on the >200 wheel-hp without FI or E85.

In stock form, our car generates 200 hp at the crank and ~175 hp at the wheels.
That is a 12.5% drivetrain loss.

If you wanted to get 200 hp at the wheels, you would need 225 hp at the crank.
That is 112.5 hp/liter which is pretty much in the top 10 hp/liter for ANY production car.
And it is almost the same as a Porsche 911 GTS which costs ~$110,000 (113 hp/liter)

If there was ANY way that the toyota engineers could get world class performance from mere "bolt-ons" and no E85 required, wouldnt they have done that??

That dyno would make a lot more sense if you could see the torque curve, or do the regression so you don't have to.

It's a simple trick, and I already explained it in another thread.

Once you see the torque curve, you realize it's not trickery, it's perfectly legitimate. Use that engineering degree.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...58&postcount=6

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=34

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110517

My posts, both before and after the dyno, and the thread they're from. There's your simple explanation. It's not magic, they just shortened the intake runners.

Look at where the power peaks on the low and high lines.

Peak torque is exactly the same. Peak power increased in direct proportion to rpm for peak torque. This trick works on any engine.

Why didn't the build an engine with world-class HP? They have regulatory requirements beyond power output. I hate to throw the emissions excuse about it, but here's an example... You can hit nearly 200 WHP with an ACE header, but that necessitates the removal of one of the primary emissions controls.

Why did they have the balls to call this engine "high revving" When it's done at 7400? Why didn't they tune it for 8 or 9? Why did they add the weight and complexity of direct injection and VCT when neither of those improve peak power output, and don't do much of anything for an NA power curve?? Why 0w-20 pisswater oil?

Those questions are rhetorical.

There are simple answers to all of those questions.

[Dr. BRZ]

Originally Posted by Dr. BRZ

I am all tomei el headers, overpipe, front pipe and 60s. i have k&n air filter, zeta performance silicone inlet tube, lightweight pullies, throttle body spacer, greddy snorkel, oft stage 2 e85 and i pull on twins evenly with the sbd turbo kit tuned on a 20 roll.

bump for my NA taking on turbos. yeah buddy!

[Lantana frs]

Imo 7400 rpm is high enough for a daily driver. The thing costs just under 26 grand. They could've done a lot worse.

[Lantana frs]

If it was euroshit the torque dip would be a "character" trait.

[-Willis-86touge]

[QUOTE=Spartarus;2801937]That dyno would make a lot more sense if you could see the torque curve, or do the regression so you don't have to.

It's a simple trick, and I already explained it in another thread.

Once you see the torque curve, you realize it's not trickery, it's perfectly legitimate. Use that engineering degree.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...58&postcount=6

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=34

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110517

My posts, both before and after the dyno, and the thread they're from. There's your simple explanation. It's not magic, they just shortened the intake runners.

Look at where the power peaks on the low and high lines.

Peak torque is exactly the same. Peak power increased in direct proportion to rpm for peak torque. This trick works on any engine.

Why didn't the build an engine with world-class HP? They have regulatory requirements beyond power output. I hate to throw the emissions excuse about it, but here's an example... You can hit nearly 200 WHP with an ACE header, but that necessitates the removal of one of the primary emissions controls.

Why did they have the balls to call this engine "high revving" When it's done at 7400? Why didn't they tune it for 8 or 9? Why did they add the weight and complexity of direct injection and VCT when neither of those improve peak power output, and don't do much of anything for an NA power curve?? Why 0w-20 pisswater oil?

Those questions are rhetorical.

There are simple answers to all of those questions.[/QUOT

I've always said the same thing I just don't know why the won't release the "magic formula". What are they hiding from us that will make this engine a superstar? I beleive this intake manifold is a step in the right direction. And maybe the higher compression pistons. Seems on a lot of cars they only add a few horsepower. Maybe so but a few is a little more then we got now. I think it will allow it to carry higher into the Rpms and pay off more then we could imagine maybe like 10 or 20. And why the f*** haven't we seen any dynos of the cars that have been fitted with itbs?? By the way I think your dyno is real people are always so negative. 130 base on 12volts car not so sure about that! I think 130 dyno might have been on a stock auto car. This would drop hp down to roughy the 130-140 range. After reading I think he stated, that he never had a base dyno? I could be wrong though. And I notice he said pump gas. If he has got that kind of money. Tune that bitch on e85 and post it I'd love to see what it could do