Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

In Subaru and Toyota's defense they were probably giving their mechanics the benefit of the doubt assuming they were capable of doing the job correctly in the first place.

Again, it isn't the recall itself that caused the failure, it was sloppy work on the part of a few mechanics. Had the work been done properly we wouldn't have anything to talk about, it would just be a footnote and we would all be telling folks that were looking at buying a used 2013 "make sure the recall for the valve spring is done on the car".

They were very, very, clear on who they expected to do this work. Apparently some dealers just didn't listen.
These instructions are also why I feel that trying to sue Toyota directly is a waste of time. They covered their ass too well to succeed.


https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-1294.pdf

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

In Subaru and Toyota's defense they were probably giving their mechanics the benefit of the doubt assuming they were capable of doing the job correctly in the first place.

This may have been the same logic of the Malaysian Airlines that were supposed to train their pilots on the new 737-MAX platform (which introduced the flying-assists to prevent the plane from crashing under certain conditions). The ill-trained pilots "unknowingly" overrode the assists and crashed two planes as a result.

Consequences are undoubtedly less severe when it comes to cars, but you get the idea.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

This may have been the same logic of the Malaysian Airlines that were supposed to train their pilots on the new 737-MAX platform (which introduced the flying-assists to prevent the plane from crashing under certain conditions). The ill-trained pilots "unknowingly" overrode the assists and crashed two planes as a result.

Consequences are undoubtedly less severe when it comes to cars, but you get the idea.

I disagree, and I think @Tcoat post above shows the manufacturer was very clear on what needed to be done, and what was required prior to doing the work in terms of training, etc. They even provided clarification later after some failures showed up (do this, not that).

That said, we are obviously in two different mindsets on this so I don't think we'll change each other's minds.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

This may have been the same logic of the Malaysian Airlines that were supposed to train their pilots on the new 737-MAX platform (which introduced the flying-assists to prevent the plane from crashing under certain conditions). The ill-trained pilots "unknowingly" overrode the assists and crashed two planes as a result.

Consequences are undoubtedly less severe when it comes to cars, but you get the idea.

A closer comparison would be if the Airline trained up all their senior pilots and then sent a baggage handler to fly the plane.

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I disagree, and I think @Tcoat post above shows the manufacturer was very clear on what needed to be done, and what was required prior to doing the work in terms of training, etc. They even provided clarification later after some failures showed up (do this, not that).

That said, we are obviously in two different mindsets on this so I don't think we'll change each other's minds.

Oh, that's not at all the route I was intending. I thought I was agreeing with you. Manufacturer (Toyota and Boeing) being clear on what needed to be done, and the dealership (airline) assuming the techs (pilots) were qualified to perform the necessary tasks.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

Oh, that's not at all the route I was intending. I thought I was agreeing with you. Manufacturer (Toyota and Boeing) being clear on what needed to be done, and the dealership (airline) assuming the techs (pilots) were qualified to perform the necessary tasks.

OHHHHH! OK, now I get it. We are violent agreement apparently!

[gravitylover]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

In Subaru and Toyota's defense they were probably giving their mechanics the benefit of the doubt assuming they were capable of doing the job correctly in the first place.

Again, it isn't the recall itself that caused the failure, it was sloppy work on the part of a few mechanics. Had the work been done properly we wouldn't have anything to talk about, it would just be a footnote and we would all be telling folks that were looking at buying a used 2013 "make sure the recall for the valve spring is done on the car".

So IOW we should never trust that the techs are actually capable of doing the job (or any detail oriented work) well. Got it.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by gravitylover

So IOW we should never trust that the techs are actually capable of doing the job (or any detail oriented work) well. Got it.

I suppose you could read it that way, but I don't believe that at all.

It could have been inexperience, lack of training (both of which violate what Toyota required for the job) or a senior tech that had some bad luck in an area with very tight tolerances that needed an exacting hand. We don't really know.

What we do know is that it's the tech that made the mistakes in any case of repair failure. It can't really be spun any other way. That doesn't mean all techs (or even these) are bad and can't be trusted, it just means mistakes were made. They aren't autobots.

The vast majority of the dealerships have done the right thing and fixed the issues. Those that didn't, well that falls directly on their management, not the tech.

[gravitylover]

While I was being sarcastic there's a kernel of truth to it. When I spoke to the tech that did mine then had to pull the pan 2 weeks later and found a fair bit of debris in the pickup he said that any time they have to pull motors apart they consider it a crap shoot as to whether it will be done sufficiently well. Their concern is that their rebuild area is far from the type of clean environment where engines are built nowadays. They also don't have the automated equipment to dispense sealants and such so they know that they're not doing nearly as good a job as they (think they) are capable of doing. He said that this is the third dealership he's worked in in the last 20 years and this is the cleanest and best setup shop of all of them but it's still not nearly what it should be. Another engine tech at a Hyundai dealership in the area said the same thing, he also said he'd be more comfortable doing it in his living room than at the dealerships rebuild station. This makes me think there are probably many other things that could be done better but can't be because...

[Blighty]

Hi guys,

So I took mine (2012 GTS) for this (valve spring) work in October - it was at the same time as my 60k service (i was just over 62000km, or around 40k miles). I also had them replace my sparkplugs, knowing I could get that done cheaply as they were removing the engine.

I am super pleased in that my car still had no rattles after the heart surgury, HOWEVER I have noticed a slight difference in its start behavior.

Now when I start the car, immediately after it starts it sounds like its running a diesel engine for a second or 2. Extremely rough. But after than second or two its perfect. In fact everything feel absolutely fine and usual.

So it hasnt really gone away after 3 months. I havent put that many kms on it in that time, but I have booked myself back into the dealer to check it out in a few weeks. Any ideas on what could cause this super rough noise after startup?

[Payload]

To answer your question "tomm brz".. According to tunning guides and other source material I have read. Those with experience on tunning these particular cars suggest that our stock oxygen sensors will not pick up AFR values lower than 12.0, some also suggest that our stock sensors can read AFR values of air/oxygen as low as 11.0... I can't testify to those beliefs because I haven't tested it, but I'm willing to bet that may be accurate information. Readings of AFR values lower than these and you'd be advised to get after market oxygen sensors, these cars have 2 oxygen sensors bank-1 and bank-2, I think most contemporary cars generally have 2 oxygen sensors...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Payload

To answer your question "tomm brz".. According to tunning guides and other source material I have read. Those with experience on tunning these particular cars suggest that our stock oxygen sensors will not pick up AFR values lower than 12.0, some also suggest that our stock sensors can read AFR values of air/oxygen as low as 11.0... I can't testify to those beliefs because I haven't tested it, but I'm willing to bet that may be accurate information. Readings of AFR values lower than these and you'd be advised to get after market oxygen sensors, these cars have 2 oxygen sensors bank-1 and bank-2, I think most contemporary cars generally have 2 oxygen sensors...

Still waiting on this "source material" you keep referencing.
Those with experience in tuning these cars think you are a nut case.
Prove me (and them) wrong and show us your sources and calculations.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Blighty

So it hasnt really gone away after 3 months. I havent put that many kms on it in that time, but I have booked myself back into the dealer to check it out in a few weeks. Any ideas on what could cause this super rough noise after startup?

Worn rod bearings rattling until pressurized oil hits them. Your next stop on the fail train will be when that sound doesn't go away.


edit: I'm wrong here. Opie has MUCH more likely explanation below. Fits perfectly.

[gravitylover]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Hi guys,

So I took mine (2012 GTS) for this (valve spring) work in October - it was at the same time as my 60k service (i was just over 62000km, or around 40k miles). I also had them replace my sparkplugs, knowing I could get that done cheaply as they were removing the engine.

I am super pleased in that my car still had no rattles after the heart surgury, HOWEVER I have noticed a slight difference in its start behavior.

Now when I start the car, immediately after it starts it sounds like its running a diesel engine for a second or 2. Extremely rough. But after than second or two its perfect. In fact everything feel absolutely fine and usual.

So it hasnt really gone away after 3 months. I havent put that many kms on it in that time, but I have booked myself back into the dealer to check it out in a few weeks. Any ideas on what could cause this super rough noise after startup?

I had the same thing and brought it back after 2k miles and mine was also running very well other than that. They pulled the pan and found sealant residue in the oil pickup, enough that it probably caused mild oil starvation on startup. Once it ran for 2 seconds it was moving enough oil that the clatter went away. It still stayed that way and was bugging me mor and more every day until I just changed the oil again yesterday and now it's back to normal, it still has the Boxer clatter but it doesn't sound like it's eating itself for lunch.

I'd say that you should ask them to pull the pan and take a look then fill with new oil and filter and then change it again in a few thousand km's.