Video: HKS 86 drift car + first 86/FR-S/BRZ dyno = 170 rwhp!!!

[serialk11r]

I try to type up a lot of my super long block posts these days since I want to point out how a lot of aspects of this car are working together. What it seems like is direct injection gets rid of the poor combustion that a racing cam has, hence better fuel economy due to inherently low volumetric efficiency.

I also think that the torque curve can be drastically modified if we can get a hold of the valve timing system. It doesn't immediately make sense why the torque can be so high at low rpm, where the torque should be the worst, and then dip in the mid range where it should actually be improving. The large amount of overlap+EGR they dial in to improve VE and reduce emissions at the same time at low rpm, full load (apparently, from the 3GR-FSE and 2GR-FSE descriptions) doesn't make much sense to me, but if that strategy can actually produce good torque despite the EGR "poisoning", then there's no reason it wouldn't work even better at midrange where the overlap is less harmful. Right now the max torque curve does not make any sense based on what I know, from a trying to achieve the most torque possible standpoint.

[Max Schnell]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Personally, i think the best indicator of a car's performance is lap-times at your local proving grounds. 200HP or 500, if you can beat that Lotus Elise by 1 second then you know where you stand

This is what ultimately matters. If this car is supposed to be good it should show it at the track. Lap-times with professional drivers will really tell the story.

If it is supposed to handle as good as a Cayman then it should not be slower than your average Miata or Rx8 at most tracks given equal drivers.

Nice to know the whp but nothing is proven on this car's performance until real track performance numbers come out.

A 200hp car that handles awsome for 25k is a bargin. Want better? Spend more money.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

SUB-FT86, you can easily get 160lb-ft (at the crank, no drivetrain, relatively constant at low speeds) with a low rpm optimized cam I think...maybe that's something you should look into. This car essentially has a racing cam. The low rpm torque sucks, but fuel economy will be pretty good because of it. Can't buy a sports car and expect the engine to be tuned for low rpm, that's called a truck/SUV :P The beauty of compromise: sometimes you get something good out of it as a side effect.

Matador, may I direct you to the Engine Tech thread?

I've driven sports cars that perform well throughout the whole powerband so this is not true.

[serialk11r]

Well not exactly. I know the example you like to use is the G35. The G35 has so much more power over a wimpy 2L engine car that you were probably satisfied with the low rpm performance, even if it could've been better at high rpm. I don't know how the G35 performs, but I assume it is going to make good torque at high rpm because it goes on the 350Z, which is supposed to be a real sports car.

When you have something like VVEL on the VQ37VHR, you can have a no compromise torque curve because the duration is adjustable. This is the only exception. With something like VTEC, Honda loses valuable fuel economy points if it wants to boost the low rpm torque, so they own't do it. Most sports cars are built by companies which do not have the sophisticated systems to produce good torque all around, so they are tuned for high end power. I am fairly sure this is an accurate trend, as when you look at the car's size vs. the torque curve when the same engine is used across a lineup, the smaller cars typically get tuned for higher rpms. It only makes sense, because horsepower is basically what sells a sports car, and not for a bad reason! The good torque is always available at 30mph and up, which is more than enough for most people.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

This is what ultimately matters. If this car is supposed to be good it should show it at the track. Lap-times with professional drivers will really tell the story.

If it is supposed to handle as good as a Cayman then it should not be slower than your average Miata or Rx8 at most tracks given equal drivers.

Nice to know the whp but nothing is proven on this car's performance until real track performance numbers come out.

A 200hp car that handles awsome for 25k is a bargin. Want better? Spend more money.

I am interested to see what it does for lap times, but I honestly dont' think it will be that impressive. I think the closest car to the 86 is the Miata, which got the slowest lap time ever in Car & Driver's lightning lap competition. I don't think the 86 will be that much faster. The Miata and 86 will do fine in tight sections, but just about every car out there will take them on straight, high speed sections. I will take a car that is fun to drive and gets slower lap times over a car that gets fast lap times but is a bloated pig any day.

[DMDZK]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

I am interested to see what it does for lap times, but I honestly dont' think it will be that impressive. I think the closest car to the 86 is the Miata, which got the slowest lap time ever in Car & Driver's lightning lap competition. I don't think the 86 will be that much faster. The Miata and 86 will do fine in tight sections, but just about every car out there will take them on straight, high speed sections. I will take a car that is fun to drive and gets slower lap times over a car that gets fast lap times but is a bloated pig any day.

I agree that the lap times of the FRS won't be incredible, maybe not even impressive. The lightning lap challenge includes enough open straits that it favors high power cars. I think that the FRS will likely fall between the cars listed below, well above the Miata but below the RX8. Even then it is only a ten second window. Looking at the power, drivetrains, weight and price points of the other cars on that list, I'd predict a finish somewhere in the middle of what I have posted below. (the reported cons of this car in performance tests such as the lightning lap will be the factory tires and low power, similar to what is said frequently about the Miata and RX-8)

82 3:19.0 MAZDA RX-8 LL1 11/06
83 3:19.0 SUBARU IMPREZA WRX STI HATCHBACK LL2 11/08
84 3:19.3 VOLKSWAGEN GTI MkVI LL2 2/10
85 3:20.6 CHEVROLET COBALT SS SUPERCHARGED LL1 11/06
86 3:20.8 DODGE CALIBER SRT4 LL1 11/08
87 3:20.9 FORD MUSTANG GT LL1 11/06
88 3:21.8 VOLKSWAGEN R32 LL2 11/08
89 3:22.9 MINI COOPER S LL1 8/07
90 3:24.8 HONDA CIVIC Si MUGEN LL2 11/08
91 3:25.1 VOLKSWAGEN GTI MkV LL1 11/06
92 3:26.5 HONDA CIVIC Si COUPE LL1 11/06
93 3:26.6 VOLVO C30 VERSION 2.0 LL1 11/08
94 3:29.3 MAZDA MX-5 MIATA LL1 11/06

For the compete list http://www.caranddriver.com/features...to-2011-page-8

More than anything I expect this car to end up in articles like http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...n-100k-feature rather than true performance tests. In my mind the FRS/BRZ is about the "driving experience" i.e. to feel good is more important than to go fast.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Well not exactly. I know the example you like to use is the G35. The G35 has so much more power over a wimpy 2L engine car that you were probably satisfied with the low rpm performance, even if it could've been better at high rpm. I don't know how the G35 performs, but I assume it is going to make good torque at high rpm because it goes on the 350Z, which is supposed to be a real sports car.

When you have something like VVEL on the VQ37VHR, you can have a no compromise torque curve because the duration is adjustable. This is the only exception. With something like VTEC, Honda loses valuable fuel economy points if it wants to boost the low rpm torque, so they own't do it. Most sports cars are built by companies which do not have the sophisticated systems to produce good torque all around, so they are tuned for high end power. I am fairly sure this is an accurate trend, as when you look at the car's size vs. the torque curve when the same engine is used across a lineup, the smaller cars typically get tuned for higher rpms. It only makes sense, because horsepower is basically what sells a sports car, and not for a bad reason! The good torque is always available at 30mph and up, which is more than enough for most people.

I heard the M3 makes good power throughout the powerband. The new 5.0 Stang makes power from low to high rpm and it redlines at 7k I think. There is a lot more examples out there nowadays.

[DSPographer]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Adding supplementary content to dyno charters.

Where did this chart come from?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I heard the M3 makes good power throughout the powerband. The new 5.0 Stang makes power from low to high rpm and it redlines at 7k I think. There is a lot more examples out there nowadays.

Sure there's lots of ways to try to cook up a flatter torque curve, but it's relatively difficult to do. In the G37, theoretically if they went with a less aggressive lift profile they could pull even more torque out of the low range, but they didn't. The point is, max hp and power at high rpm is the primary goal in a sports car, the low rpm torque comes if they have the means.

[MRZ415]

More HP or more torque ..
if its got 169HP at the rear wheels in HP ...
what can that translate into Torque ?
Will it still pump out close to 150Torque ?

I drive a Diesel which have higher torque than HP.

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

you really have to take your car to the track to understand what kind of an effect a ~500lb weight advantage has on your laptimes compared to 100hp of power difference.

depends on the track largely as to what effect but weight effects every aspect of acceleration...not just straight forward.

...and I'm an engine guy

Originally Posted by serialk11r

SUB-FT86, you can easily get 160lb-ft (at the crank, no drivetrain, relatively constant at low speeds) with a low rpm optimized cam I think...maybe that's something you should look into. This car essentially has a racing cam. The low rpm torque sucks, but fuel economy will be pretty good because of it. Can't buy a sports car and expect the engine to be tuned for low rpm, that's called a truck/SUV :P The beauty of compromise: sometimes you get something good out of it as a side effect.

Matador, may I direct you to the Engine Tech thread?

Race cams? where are you getting this from?

[DMDZK]

Originally Posted by MRZ415

More HP or more torque ..
if its got 169HP at the rear wheels in HP ...
what can that translate into Torque ?
Will it still pump out close to 150Torque ?

I drive a Diesel which have higher torque than HP.

Horsepower is torque applied over time. Hp = Tq*RPM/5252 in order to have peak TQ that is higher than peak TQ they would both have to occur under 5252 rpm

[serialk11r]

Um, you can't have "higher torque than hp", because the 2 are measuring different quantities :P

A turbo-diesel will have very good torque at low rpm, but die off very fast. So it feels fast from a start, but if you try to wring it out you don't get much more power. A naturally aspirated engine has more or less constant torque, with some relatively small variations.

It's very likely that your TDI will have faster acceleration at say 10mph than this car, so don't expect too much.

"rear wheel hp" from a dyno is a stupid number to use as an absolute number. It's only useful for comparisons. Expect 88% mechanical efficiency or so.

EDIT: Homemade WRX, I didn't literally mean "race cams", I was trying to say it's analogous to race cams as the cam duration is quite long. The 2GR for example has 250 degree intake duration, and that has a torque peak below 5000. This cam appears to be happy somewhere above that, so it has cams that are sorta like "race cams", the same way a Honda K20 has "race cams" on the 2nd cam lobe. Except that these long duration cams are always engaged on this engine.

[witchatookie]

I've compared pictures of the fb20 open block and the FA20 open block we see here and they look almost identical. If the bore pitch and bolt patterns are the same, we could have an FA25 Frankenstein monster on our hands! YEAH BOI!!!