Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by CBR600RR

How about a 2.5 litre NA engine, that makes 230 - 250 hp?


That is what I would go for!

This is what I was expecting. Keep the 2.0 liter engine and offer also a 2.5 liter engine with an "S" version car. They are doing pretty much the same in Cayman for years and years. Unfortunately, they went the other way around and tried to refine the existing engine with questionable results ...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

This is what I was expecting. Keep the 2.0 liter engine and offer also a 2.5 liter engine with an "S" version car. They are doing pretty much the same in Cayman for years and years. Unfortunately, they went the other way around and tried to refine the existing engine with questionable results ...

Or just do the Scion thing and offer an optional SC like they did with the tC. I thought for sure there would be some factory approved TRD SC by now. Wouldn't matter though since everybody would just up the number it "needs".

[Guru Woodman]

Not to offend the previous posters, but I honestly get sick of those knuckle dragging couch racer claiming that this platform is shit needs a turbo. For what? A traffic jam in LA? Daily commutes? It has more then adequate power for whatever you can throw at it in the real world. Except maybe bragging rights, which is probably the main reason why a lot of these folks cry like babies. And most of these 'experts' never driven in a 86.
And lets be honest, don't like what Toyota/Subaru has to offer? Don't buy it and move on please. Buy something else if this is not what you want.
People that track them are different. They are always on the hunt for better track times and I doubt that there are many out there that track a stock car. There is a huge support to cater their needs too and that is part of the hobby to tune it.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or just do the Scion thing and offer an optional SC like they did with the tC. I thought for sure there would be some factory approved TRD SC by now. Wouldn't matter though since everybody would just up the number it "needs".

They'd also bitch about how you "need" to shell out $2,000 - $3,000 to make the car "what it should've been from the factory".

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Guru Woodman

Not to offend the previous posters, but I honestly get sick of those knuckle dragging couch racer claiming that this platform is shit needs a turbo. For what? A traffic jam in LA? Daily commutes? It has more then adequate power for whatever you can throw at it in the real world. Except maybe bragging rights, which is probably the main reason why a lot of these folks cry like babies. And most of these 'experts' never driven in a 86.
And lets be honest, don't like what Toyota/Subaru has to offer? Don't buy it and move on please. Buy something else if this is not what you want.
People that track them are different. They are always on the hunt for better track times and I doubt that there are many out there that track a stock car. There is a huge support to cater their needs too and that is part of the hobby to tune it.

You sound just like about 100 posts I have written on here!
In fairness the "has more horsepower" mentality has been drilled into Americans heads for 100 years.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CBR600RR

How about a 2.5 litre NA engine, that makes 230 - 250 hp?

That is what I would go for!

Most countries tax based on displacement and a 2.5L engine would put the 86 up into a different price bracket that would be a total failure.

Therefore it would likely be a U.S. only option, which means even fewer produced which means even fewer sold which means profit margins are extremely narrow and the price would be much higher than the power gained.

People vastly overestimate how many cars are sold with the bigger engine/higher trim levels. V8 Mustangs are a surprisingly small fraction of total Mustangs sold, and I don't care if we're talking BMW or Hyundai.

The 86 was designed so it could be sold in every country in the world with minimal changes, literally a slightly reworked tune for European emissions is the only non-trim related mechanical difference I know of aside from RHD/LHD.

Toyota is a business not a charity.

This logic is almost identical to why they won't do FI. Luckily most are reporting good things about running a modest hp bump so the car seems to be built to handle it, no need to spend a bunch of money upgrading clutches, axles, transmissions, wheels/rubber, and chassis bracing.

The car you claim you want is a few clicks away and an afternoon of wrenching. Either do it or stop pretending you aren't another armchair quarterback shit poster.

[funwheeldrive]

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I'd much rather have the torque dip eliminated rather than Subaru/Toyota offering the car with a factory turbo. I love the idea of keeping this car simple and responsive, but the torque dip occasionally still makes me a little sad. This car would be 10/10 without it. I know some people claim they don't notice it, but it's very obvious during certain situations.


My 99 Integra GSR is slower, has less horsepower, but the power delivery is much more linear and predictable. Obviously eliminating the factory dip would probably cause the car to fail emissions though. I wish instead of throwing on a turbo that Subaru/Toyota would have focused on weight reduction and got this car closer to 2600-2650lbs.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Nissans 240 lasted several generations as well..... Guess what everyone in America wanted in their car? The SR20 from the Japanese cars that was refused to the North American market. Still the most common swap for the KA when it goes (although LS swaps are becoming more common!)

I never wanted a SR in any of the ~9 S-chassis I owned in the past.

-alex

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I'd much rather have the torque dip eliminated rather than Subaru/Toyota offering the car with a factory turbo. I love the idea of keeping this car simple and responsive, but the torque dip occasionally still makes me a little sad. This car would be 10/10 without it. I know some people claim they don't notice it, but it's very obvious during certain situations.

A header + tune pretty much eliminates the dip.

The meat of the power band is still up high, but at least there is no dip.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by jvincent

A header + tune pretty much eliminates the dip.

The meat of the power band is still up high, but at least there is no dip.

Yeah, and don't get me wrong I realize this car is meant to be modified while at the same time being fantastic to drive out of the box.


If I install a header though my car will fail smog. It's hard wanting to modify a car in California.

[djwishbone]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I'd much rather have the torque dip eliminated rather than Subaru/Toyota offering the car with a factory turbo. I love the idea of keeping this car simple and responsive, but the torque dip occasionally still makes me a little sad. This car would be 10/10 without it. I know some people claim they don't notice it, but it's very obvious during certain situations. .

God this, so much this. This car would be infinitely better without this very weird dip right in the middle of the range where the car just falls on it's face. You think if tuners can help with that the engineers at Subaru could do something about it. It's obviously on purpose. My guess is still so it can boost it's MPG numbers for daily driving. Assuming that when you drive it hard you're just always redlining it I guess. I'd rather have slightly worse MPG numbers and more linear delivery, but it might have been an easy way to pad their overall fleet MPG numbers.

Still who cares. The gripes about the platform are legit because it's a niche vehicle designed for a very specific market. Lots of corners are going to be cut to make it happen at that price. If it doesn't make you grin when you drive it, you're either doing it wrong or this vehicle just isn't for you.

[strat61caster]

Suddenly a wild Porsche dyno appears!



Fucking Porsche didn't tune it out on a Cayman S and you expect Subaru/Toyota to do it on your $25k econo-sports car?

Here's a dyno sheet of the GT4, $90k+ Porsche sports car: there's that torque dip right there at 3.5k rpm nearly where it is on the FA20.

[DatsunDimer]

Wanting what we don't have and know is available. I think there would be a little, emphasis on little, less complaining about more power if the WRX did not possess essentially the same motor.

Having an SR (because POWER <--- naive youth), I have been considering going back to the L-series and just enjoying the car as it was intended. A reason why I love this particular platform... enjoyable and fun as it is. Power can be overcompensating for an inferior chassis IMO.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Most countries tax based on displacement and a 2.5L engine would put the 86 up into a different price bracket that would be a total failure.

Therefore it would likely be a U.S. only option, which means even fewer produced which means even fewer sold which means profit margins are extremely narrow and the price would be much higher than the power gained.

People vastly overestimate how many cars are sold with the bigger engine/higher trim levels. V8 Mustangs are a surprisingly small fraction of total Mustangs sold, and I don't care if we're talking BMW or Hyundai.

The 86 was designed so it could be sold in every country in the world with minimal changes, literally a slightly reworked tune for European emissions is the only non-trim related mechanical difference I know of aside from RHD/LHD.

Toyota is a business not a charity.

This logic is almost identical to why they won't do FI. Luckily most are reporting good things about running a modest hp bump so the car seems to be built to handle it, no need to spend a bunch of money upgrading clutches, axles, transmissions, wheels/rubber, and chassis bracing.

The car you claim you want is a few clicks away and an afternoon of wrenching. Either do it or stop pretending you aren't another armchair quarterback shit poster.

I am going to add something to all this (which is almost perfect) that may not be popular but I experienced it first had today.


This forum is made up of people that look at the car as an enthusiast platform and turn a blind eye to the reality of things. Yes this car was designed for the driver but that does not mean that the "normal" person does not buy it. Like the Miata, Mustang, Z Cars and yes the Holiest of Holies the S2000 there are probably hundreds or even thousands sold to people that think it is a cute little car and it will NEVER be driven as so many here say it was "meant to" be. Hate to break it to some but when it comes to the famous hairdresser cars of history the Twins are right near the top of the list.


About two hours ago I went out for a smoke and was shocked to see a BRZ in our lot (you have to understand these cars are scare in my area). I hung around for a few minutes and the owner came out. Turns out he is a robot programmer here from Toronto. I was talking to him and pointed out my car. He had NO CLUE that there was a Scion version or that Toyota had anything to do with the car. None. Nothing. He didn't even care there was since he said he bought it because it looked good and he liked two doors.


This is the majority buyer for the car. Not the track day fan, hooning enthusiast or forum bench racers. It is the same people that buy base Mustangs and Cameros because they like the looks and it is a pretty colour. They do not care what the horsepower is, they have no clue there is a torque dip and they sure as hell are not looking for 300hp turboed cars they can't drive in half the weather conditions they have too. This has been the way of sports car sales since the mid sixties and it isn't going to change now.


Proof I am not making the conversation above up!