Toyota Supra Alleged Revival: 2015.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

In 93 the NA Supra was $33,900. That is $60k in todays money. Now the new base Supra starts around $50k and $54k for premium. Not that much differences imo. Just wait for the track model that is the equivalence to the GTE MKIV.

I'm not too up to date regarding A80 EU Supra pricing and etc.

According to BMWUK and ToyotaUK the Supra actually cost more.

Z4: £49,050
Supra: £52,695.00

No, you can't compare the NA Supra to the TT. That is like comparing the WRX to the WRX STI. They were way too different. The MKV Supra at $50k (US) is the replacement for the MKIV Supra turbo. In Japan they will be selling a 4 cylinder turbo variant that could be similar in comparison to the NA MKIV Supra, or perhaps the 4 cylinder Z4, but even then, there may not be enough differences. I don't know if the brakes are different, if the transmission is different, if it lacks the active differential or other things. The point is that the Supra was way too expensive then for what the buyer got, so it didn't sell well. The Z3 at the time was similar in power to the NA Supra, but weighed 600 pounds less, and it had a luxury badge, so there was more value for the same price, which is why it sold well.

That is interesting that the Z4 is cheaper in the UK, but like $15k more expensive than the Supra in the US. I wonder if they package the car much differently there/here. Regardless, the Z4 At 49k euros will probably get the BMW package treatment and quickly balloon up above the Supra. In fact, the Supra might be cheaper when both are equipped the same; I don't know. What is obvious is that the Z4 is selling well enough that the Supra could clearly do better than 900 units a year.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

No, you can't compare the NA Supra to the TT. That is like comparing the WRX to the WRX STI. They were way too different. The MKV Supra at $50k (US) is the replacement for the MKIV Supra turbo. In Japan they will be selling a 4 cylinder turbo variant that could be similar in comparison to the NA MKIV Supra, or perhaps the 4 cylinder Z4, but even then, there may not be enough differences. I don't know if the brakes are different, if the transmission is different, if it lacks the active differential or other things. The point is that the Supra was way too expensive then for what the buyer got, so it didn't sell well. The Z3 at the time was similar in power to the NA Supra, but weighed 600 pounds less, and it had a luxury badge, so there was more value for the same price, which is why it sold well.

That is interesting that the Z4 is cheaper in the UK, but like $15k more expensive than the Supra in the US. I wonder if they package the car much differently there/here. Regardless, the Z4 At 49k euros will probably get the BMW package treatment and quickly balloon up above the Supra. In fact, the Supra might be cheaper when both are equipped the same; I don't know. What is obvious is that the Z4 is selling well enough that the Supra could clearly do better than 900 units a year.

Like I said in the Supra thread, we have VINs for a more powerful "382hp" B58D that is a US spec. From what I understand the current plan for the US is to have the $50k-$54k 335hp B58C as the base model and launch the 382hp B58D Supra in 2021 has a track model. Rumored price tag is like $60k. The GTE A80 was $39,900 or $70.1k today. So while both of them are still slightly cheaper than their predecessor, it's still isn't that much off imo. We all know Japan does their thing (displacement tax). The word going around during early development was to just badge the 4 banger as a "Celica". However that was scrapped because Toyota felt it would cost more in the marketing department. Yeah I agree, I think it will do pretty well in the EU. It is basically a BMW after all and Europeans loves BMWs, MBs, VW and etc.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Like I said in the Supra thread, we have VINs for a more powerful "382hp" B58D that is a US spec. From what I understand the current plan for the US is to have the $50k-$54k 335hp B58C as the base model and launch the 382hp B58D Supra in 2021 has a track model. Rumored price tag is like $60k. The GTE A80 was $39,900 or $70.1k today. So while both of them are still slightly cheaper than their predecessor, it's still isn't that much off imo. We all know Japan does their thing (displacement tax). The word going around during early development was to just badge the 4 banger as a "Celica". However that was scrapped because Toyota felt it would cost more in the marketing department. Yeah I agree, I think it will do pretty well in the EU. It is basically a BMW after all and Europeans loves BMWs, MBs, VW and etc.

You can cherry pick the low number, and I can cherry pick the high number: in 1996 $50,400 Supra TT would cost $82,262 today. Check the supraforums thread I linked with the sticker prices, or "sticker shock" prices, and see how many sold over $50k. It really is no wonder they didn't sell well, and why they cut the price so much in 1997, yet it was still high.

And all that you said is fine, but just to reiterate the differences between the NA MKIV Supra and the TT Supra:

--Turbocharged vs NA, more powerful engine
--Oil squirters
--Coil packs vs distributer
--Upgraded fuel system
--Better Auto or V160 Getrag 6speed vs W58 5speed
--Larger, better brakes
--Larger rims
--LSD
--Traction control
--Suspension upgrades like thicker sway bars

A W58 is like $250-500 used. A V160 is like $6k-10k used. Add up the cost of a big brake, a turbo kit, and LSD swap and suspension upgrades, and the price difference was not only worth the cost, but the improvements were huge.

I don't think the B58D will be enough of an improvement on its own to start drawing the comparison you are making between the NA and TT. Moreover, doesn't the Z4 use the B58D, and didn't the Supra already beat it in a drag race? Isn't more horsepower and torque a tune and some mods away anyways? This GTE version, as you call it, will need major aero and cooling upgrades or something to make your point valid.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You can cherry pick the low number, and I can cherry pick the high number: in 1996 $50,400 Supra TT would cost $82,262 today. Check the supraforums thread I linked with the sticker prices, or "sticker shock" prices, and see how many sold over $50k. It really is no wonder they didn't sell well, and why they cut the price so much in 1997, yet it was still high.

And all that you said is fine, but just to reiterate the differences between the NA MKIV Supra and the TT Supra:

--Turbocharged vs NA, more powerful engine
--Oil squirters
--Coil packs vs distributer
--Upgraded fuel system
--Better Auto or V160 Getrag 6speed vs W58 5speed
--Larger, better brakes
--Larger rims
--LSD
--Traction control
--Suspension upgrades like thicker sway bars

A W58 is like $250-500 used. A V160 is like $6k-10k used. Add up the cost of a big brake, a turbo kit, and LSD swap and suspension upgrades, and the price difference was not only worth the cost, but the improvements were huge.

I don't think the B58D will be enough of an improvement on its own to start drawing the comparison you are making between the NA and TT. Moreover, doesn't the Z4 use the B58D, and didn't the Supra already beat it in a drag race? Isn't more horsepower and torque a tune and some mods away anyways? This GTE version, as you call it, will need major aero and cooling upgrades or something to make your point valid.

Are you kidding me? I'm not cherry picking anything. I am using 1st year MSRP vs 1st year MSRP. You are using numbers that were already 3 years into the A80's life-cycle. How is that fair? Can I make up a MSRP for a "2023" Supra???

Thanks for telling me what came on my car. I had no idea..

That's the thing, we don't know everything about this "2021 model with the B58D" yet so chillax. If you watched any of the interviews with Tada-san at VA he said Toyota actually left enough room (physical space) for improvements hint hint.

You do know the B58C and B58D have different block numbers as well as a different head design. It's simply not just a different tune. And no the EU Z4 uses the B58C. The US Z4M40i uses the B58D.

On paper differences according to BMWUK and BMWUSA.
EU Z4: 335hp 0-62 4.6 sec
US Z4: 382hp 0-60 3.9 sec

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Are you kidding me? I'm not cherry picking anything. I am using 1st year MSRP vs 1st year MSRP. You are using numbers that were already 3 years into the A80's life-cycle. How is that fair? Can I make up a MSRP for a "2023" Supra???

Thanks for telling me what came on my car. I had no idea..

That's the thing, we don't know everything about this "2021 model with the B58D" yet so chillax. If you watched any of the interviews with Tada-san at VA he said Toyota actually left enough room (physical space) for improvements hint hint.

You do know the B58C and B58D have different block numbers as well as a different head design. It's simply not just a different tune. And no the EU Z4 uses the B58C. The US Z4M40i uses the B58D.

On paper differences according to BMWUK and BMWUSA.
EU Z4: 335hp 0-62 4.6 sec
US Z4: 382hp 0-60 3.9 sec

I was comparing the Z3 (came out in 1998) sales numbers and price to the Supra TT to show how the high price stifled sales for the Supra. The NA Supra wasn’t selling any better because it too was overpriced for what people got. If you own one then you should know better. Suggesting like you did that old sales figures from the MKIV is what we should expect from the MKV, which is much cheaper and better value, just doesn’t make sense.

What actually is the difference? Maybe a different manifold versus a headifold? A different sized turbo? More boost?

Like the R34 GTR came in different trims and specs or the EVO or STI, they aren’t the same as the R34 GTS or Lancer or WRX, like the NA Supra isn’t the TT. This bump in factory power is cool, but to suggest the current offering is analogous to the NA Supra and the new one might be analogous to the TT Supra because it might fit your price comparison is a big stretch, especially when it ignores the fact that the 4 cylinder Supra/Z4 exists.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I was comparing the Z3 (came out in 1998) sales numbers and price to the Supra TT to show how the high price stifled sales for the Supra. The NA Supra wasn’t selling any better because it too was overpriced for what people got. If you own one then you should know better. Suggesting like you did that old sales figures from the MKIV is what we should expect from the MKV, which is much cheaper and better value, just doesn’t make sense.

What actually is the difference? Maybe a different manifold versus a headifold? A different sized turbo? More boost?

Like the R34 GTR came in different trims and specs or the EVO or STI, they aren’t the same as the R34 GTS or Lancer or WRX, like the NA Supra isn’t the TT. This bump in factory power is cool, but to suggest the current offering is analogous to the NA Supra and the new one might be analogous to the TT Supra because it might fit your price comparison is a big stretch, especially when it ignores the fact that the 4 cylinder Supra/Z4 exists.

Ok.. in your prior post (#261) you said nothing about the Z3. Also Idc.. it doesn't have anything to do with A80 vs A90. Worldwide the GE A80 actually outsold the GTE A80. I do, you're more then welcome to come over.

Again, we haven't seen this 2021 year model yet so stop hyperventilating. The Z4M40i does come with M brakes so that should address one item on your list.

The differences is the B58D actually has stronger internals. I suggest you do some reading over on bimmerpost.

Again, the 4 banger is JDM only. I already explained to you why it even exists.

This back and forth is getting really old. You can keep spinning things however you want, but these are the facts:
* For all markets with the exception of Japan, the B58C Supra is the base model.
* Hotter versions of this car is coming. We can pick up this conversation again once we see the "track" Supra. Otherwise we would just be continuing talking about an unknown item.

[gymratter]

the only thing i would like to add is not all EU Supras are priced the same. also the new Supra is not sold in all EU countries.

here are just a few that have released pricing.
UK: £ 52,695 = $65,884 USD
Germany: € 62.900,00 = $70,767 USD
Italy: € 67,900 = $76,392 USD
Spain: € 69.900,00 = $78,654 USD
Ireland: € 81.780 = $92,022 USD

besides the UK, the new Supra is not a cheap car in the majority of the EU. it cost more than the base Cayman, but still cheaper than the Cayman S.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

900 units for the EU in the first year (really +/- 6 months) is a good number imo. Toyota only sold 1,698 MKIVs in the EU throughout it's whole life-cycle.

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/specs.htm#PRODUCTION

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Ok.. in your prior post (#261) you said nothing about the Z3. Also Idc.. it doesn't have anything to do with A80 vs A90. Worldwide the GE A80 actually outsold the GTE A80. I do, you're more then welcome to come over.

Again, we haven't seen this 2021 year model yet so stop hyperventilating. The Z4M40i does come with M brakes so that should address one item on your list.

The differences is the B58D actually has stronger internals. I suggest you do some reading over on bimmerpost.

Again, the 4 banger is JDM only. I already explained to you why it even exists.

This back and forth is getting really old. You can keep spinning things however you want, but these are the facts:
* For all markets with the exception of Japan, the B58C Supra is the base model.
* Hotter versions of this car is coming. We can pick up this conversation again once we see the "track" Supra. Otherwise we would just be continuing talking about an unknown item.

I guess we will wait and see how they sell next year since this year they are all sold out. I’m guessing they will max out if they only release 900 units based on current Z4 sales, like I have been saying. It’ll be interesting to also compare the sales of the 4 cylinder Z4 in Europe and the 4 cylinder Supra in Japan to the MKIV NA model. Until then.

[gymratter]

also the only Supras that are sold out in Japan are the B58s. no one is giving a crap about the B48 version lol...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gymratter

also the only Supras that are sold out in Japan are the B58s. no one is giving a crap about the B48 version lol...

How many have sold? How many are they producing? Which version of the engines aren’t selling? Seems like the cost to own is so expensive in Japan that a 200hp 3100lb car might not be worth the money. Probably those who can buy are just buying up. Better value.

[WolfpackS2k]

What the hell is GTE?

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

How many have sold? How many are they producing? Which version of the engines aren’t selling? Seems like the cost to own is so expensive in Japan that a 200hp 3100lb car might not be worth the money. Probably those who can buy are just buying up. Better value.

not sure, its alittle hard to find numbers for markets like Japan. i was just going by what the Japanese media is putting out.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What the hell is GTE?

as in 2JZ-GTE.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What the hell is GTE?

Yes, as in 2jzgte, as in the TT MKIV because it was suggested by another that the current base MKV is analogous to the NA MKIV, and that the future models of the MKV that may be coming are analogous to the TT MKIV.

Originally Posted by gymratter

not sure, its alittle hard to find numbers for markets like Japan. i was just going by what the Japanese media is putting out.

as in 2JZ-GTE.

Yea, I read that the other models aren't sold out, but I don't know what that means. It could mean they are selling less than their production output, but the allocation could be two or three times that of the RZ, meaning they are selling better than the RZ. It could also be the case that the RZ is just selling more units than the SZ and SZ-R, just like the GT Mustang was selling more units than the V6 and 2.3T here, even though it too was more expensive.

The 86 is priced much more similarly in Japan, as it is here. Maybe even cheaper, so paying $45k for the SZ might not be worth the money (slower than the 86 to 60mph, cloth interior, manual seats, small brakes, no active suspension or diff, smaller rims, run flat tires).

[gymratter]

^yeah i have no idea either, guess we'll just have to wait for the end of the year sales number / model break down.

so in other news, (take w/ gain of salt) bimmerpost insider is saying the 385hp B58D will be replacing the 335hp B58C Supra in all markets except the EU. if true, i guess this is Toyota's way of trying to stay competitive against the up coming C8.