Does the clutch fake you out?

[Cdub998]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

How much travel between floor and touch point? I think I made up the term "touch point" but it makes sense in my head.

That assist spring is on an overcenter cam so if you have the pedal adjusted really low I could see it interfering with return at the top. That's not good because that also means the throwout bearing is engaged the whole time. There's a valve in the master cylinder which opens when it reaches the end of its travel. It needs to be able to reach that point to fully release the clutch fork.

You can prove this to yourself by pulling the fork forward to compress the slave cylinder. Be careful if your reservoir is full. That fluid has to go somewhere.

Won't be able to do that even with the pedal slightly pressed because, the valve closes and now it's into the compression (actuation) mode.

As I think about this, I regret suggesting the second adjustment to further lower the clutch pedal after the cylinder swap. It's likely what caused your situation. Please let me know what you find. I'll update the DIY accordingly.

I am at about 1.5 inches off the floor to when engagement starts. I thought I was originally too low so I have backed it off some to level or slightly above the brake. Maybe I need to rebleed the system. I will troubleshoot more this week.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Cdub998

I am at about 1.5 inches off the floor to when engagement starts. I thought I was originally too low so I have backed it off some to level or slightly above the brake. Maybe I need to rebleed the system. I will troubleshoot more this week.

Keep me posted. I am concerned about anything I may have overlooked and will update the procedure accordingly. Thanks for the updates!

[mike the snake]

It seems to me if you lower the "touch point" too much, you might put it past the center of the assist spring, which would then cause the pedal to not pull back completely.

You should never need to pull the pedal back with your foot.

With the assist spring removed, the pedal may fall forward TO the touch point (so, no dead band) but you should be able to pull the pedal back maybe 1/2'', or basically have 1/2'' of deadband when properly adjusted.

On my car, if I had removed the assist spring, and the pedal were to fall forward to the touch point, I'd personally install a light spring to pull the pedal back. Then, I'd have my 1/2" of deadband travel to the touch point.

The assist spring makes it difficult to feel the touch point, it makes the whole stroke kind of vague. If you know what you're feeling for, you can still feel the touch point though.

I think many Many people are running with mal-adjusted clutches, causing the hard to engage 1st and dragging clutches.

I installed the ACT clutch on my car, and I had to adjust mine as I've suggested, and it made it MUCH better. Night and day.

In a nutshell, adjust your clutch so you have 1/2'' deadband/free travel to the touch point, and you should be good IMO.

[Ultramaroon]

When I say "touch point" I'm referring to the point at which, as the clutch pedal is released, the first "bite" of clutch engagement is felt. If anyone knows of a better term to describe this, please correct me. Thanks.

Bite point?

I agree with Mike. Lots of clutches now adjusted with not enough disengagement being forced into gear and dragging.

[unsurety]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

In the olden days, you adjusted that "dead" pedal travel at the top to 1/2'' and called it a day.

IMO there's too much dead pedal, resulting in the clutch not being actuated enough, which causes the hard to engage 1st.

If you have the 1/2'' of deadband, you shouldn't notice the pedal not returning fully.

A soft spring from the hardware (like for a screen door) store hooked to the pedal will have it returning fully, with no difference in feel.

IMO a LOT of the complaints of hard to engage 1st and creeping in 1st is due to improper adjustment.

Hmm... I have encountered that very rarely, where it doesn't want to go into 1st all the way. Back into neutral and then in 1st and it's fine.

Stock everything clutch, but with the spring removed and clutch pedal lowered to 1-2mm above the brake pedal. Is that too low.

[mike the snake]

I read about people adjusting their clutch pedals in relation to the brake pedal. This IMO is not correct, as I think people are actually lowering the "touch point", adding dead band, and in turn, the clutch is not being full disengaged, even when the pedal is pushed all the way to the floor.

IMO you want the most travel you can get from the slave cylinder, and this means the pedal should begin "pushing" the master cylinder as early as possible. This is why I say set the clutch with just 1/2'' of dead play (you want a little play so you don't continually spin the throwout bearing), this gives you maximum actuation.

I can say that my car stock, and also with the ACT clutch, the clutch was not adjusted optimally. After adjusting my clutch the action was much better.

[Ultramaroon]

The clutch pedal acts on the master cylinder immediately at no matter what point it is adjusted. This is by design. It is impossible to add extra dead throw at the top. The only thing that can be adjusted is the total amount of throw of the cylinder.

Adjusting the clutch relative to the brake pedal is BAD ADVICE. Never mind where the other pedals are. Adjust the clutch for proper operation. Is this what the accepted adjustment DIY says? I need to read it more carefully.

There are 2 critical adjustments.

1. Make sure the clutch disengages fully (and then a little safety factor) at the bottom. The issue with the factory adjustment is that the clutch fully disengages way too early. There is a bunch of arc wasted at the bottom of the throw.

2. Adjust the clutch switch so it doesn't keep the clutch master piston from fully extending. This is critical for the self-adjusting feature inherent in the design of this system.

[geezer86]

Adjust the pedal engagement height ( see DIY)
I had trouble getting used to the clutch also.
Mine now engages just off the floor and after driving 5k I'm ready to move it up a hair I find it also depends on my shoes (size14) if I'm wearing my driving shoes much better feel.

[Phantobe]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

The clutch pedal acts on the master cylinder immediately at no matter what point it is adjusted. This is by design. It is impossible to add extra dead throw at the top. The only thing that can be adjusted is the total amount of throw of the cylinder.

Adjusting the clutch relative to the brake pedal is BAD ADVICE. Never mind where the other pedals are. Adjust the clutch for proper operation. Is this what the accepted adjustment DIY says? I need to read it more carefully.

There are 2 critical adjustments.

1. Make sure the clutch disengages fully (and then a little safety factor) at the bottom. The issue with the factory adjustment is that the clutch fully disengages way too early. There is a bunch of arc wasted at the bottom of the throw.

2. Adjust the clutch switch so it doesn't keep the clutch master piston from fully extending. This is critical for the self-adjusting feature inherent in the design of this system.

People adjust their clutch pedal relative to their brake pedal because they've found that its a good spot to have it relative to when the clutch will engage/disengage (for the stock clutch).

I have my clutch pedal parallel to the plane of my brake pedal and when i have the clutch fully pressed in its fully disengaged, about an inch to inch n half from the floor you'll feel the clutch start to engage.

Also that thread does not really give a good way of adjusting the clutch pedal, there is a far easier way buried in the thread but is not outlined in the DIY. In the "clutch pedal adjust" thread, check out pg 14 post 288, pg 20 post 420 and pg 18 post 384. Instead of going through all the trouble in the DIY the simple way is to remove the pin & plastic cap then adjust the u shaped clevis, I don't know the entirety of the other way but its more complex and involves the cruise control sensor.

[Chenslee]

Not sure if anyone has seen this. It's the patent for the damper on the clutch master cylinder.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP1457702A1?cl=en

[rosol16]

My SRT4 has a stage 2 clutch and I stalled that maybe once driving it for 2 years and I've stalled this at least 5 times in the month I owned it. Not only is the release point really weird it doesn't have much feel to it. Granted my SRT4 makes more than twice the tq and almost double the whp that the Twins do but still.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by rosol16

My SRT4 has a stage 2 clutch and I stalled that maybe once driving it for 2 years and I've stalled this at least 5 times in the month I owned it. Not only is the release point really weird it doesn't have much feel to it. Granted my SRT4 makes more than twice the tq and almost double the whp that the Twins do but still.

If you can bleed your brakes with confidence and plan on keeping the stock clutch even for a few months skip the spring removal and go straight for the slave cylinder swap. Literally an hour job if you take your time.

[jcw99]

Took your advice, Ultramaroon. My slave cylinder arrived yesterday. Hope to install it on Tuesday. Thanx for all your help.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by jcw99

Took your advice, Ultramaroon. My slave cylinder arrived yesterday. Hope to install it on Tuesday. Thanx for all your help.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Just to drill it in some more, remember, the DIY photos show the *cough* wrong part. I mention buying it on a whim in this thread and I never bothered updating. It's still installed and works just fine.

I do need to add something about applying a dab of high temp - high tack grease to both ends of the pushrod. Wheel bearing grease will work but the tacky stuff is what's specified.