FRS/BRZ vs. 2013 Civic SI

[suzuka]

Originally Posted by fatoni

all i see are photos. there is nothing noting how the car drives in your link

From the Honda press release...

Chassis
Under the skin, the 2013 Civic has had significant alterations aimed at enhancing handling refinement and noise isolation. A reworked Electronic Power Steering (EPS) setup reduces friction and provides a quicker ratio, while stiffer wheels, stiffer front springs and a thicker front stabilizer bar with new Teflon-lined mounting bushings are designed for more fluid suspension action and a flatter, more responsive cornering attitude. The rear suspension also receives a thicker stabilizer bar, increased spring rate, new Teflon-lined stabilizer-bar bushings, and reworked suspension bushings to increase both bump- and roll-motion stiffness. With its retuned MacPherson strut front and multi-link rear suspension, handling linearity, responsiveness and overall vehicle composure have been increased, while at the same time improving ride quality and the characteristic Honda fun-to-drive feel. For 2013, front brake-rotor diameter on automatic-equipped Civic LX, EX and EX-L Sedans and Coupes jumps 20 mm from 262 to 282 mm for improved stopping performance. A large range of new noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) countermeasures work together to reduce road, engine and wind noise in the 2013 Civic’s interior. This includes a stiffer front subframe, new thicker windshield and front door glass, and additional soundproofing material in the dash, floor, doors, and rear tray to help reduce unwanted road noise, and provide a more serene ride and quieter cabin.

The only review out right now for the refreshed civic...

[Jaylyons1]

civic drives the wrong set of wheels...

[Eau Rouge]

"title as the best FF drivers' car"
This is why there is no argument to be had regarding a comparison with the BRZ/FR-S platform (FR).

[whtchocla7e]

4-door and still ugly...

[n2oinferno]

If I wasn't dead set on getting one of the twins, I'd probably end up with a Civic Si. Mainly because I can get an 09 with 50k for about ten grand less than the FRS. That really still makes me think about it.. I test drove one and it's an enjoyable car to drive. Of course, I love high-revving fours. FWD is a little meh but for most of the population the wheels that drive the car don't matter.

[Huss]

Originally Posted by SupraLove

The 8th Gen Si was a masterfully built vehicle. The shifter was so smooth you would have thought it was connected via a straight linkage. The balance of the chassis was so good, you wouldn't believe that it had a 62/38 front weight bias. Understeer? Very minimal; just a little left in for safety purposes. A bit of body roll was there, but it was controlled and didn't interfere with cornering at all. Suspension was firm, controlled and confident. Torque steer? Nonexistent. If you stepped into the car and drove it without knowing the name or badge on the back, you would think it was a RWD sports sedan. The engine was incredibly fun to wind up, and it had that ridiculously high 8400RPM cutoff that sounded so good. The steering was pretty on-center and had decent feel (although not as good as, say the twins' or the Miata's steering feel), and the clutch engagement was positive and had good feedback.

Not a trace of the boring and bland 1.8 Civic was left in the vehicle, and it sold so well because it was a legitimate sports car. It felt just like the DC5 Teg, and in some ways even better.

The 9th gen is a whole different story. 8000RPM redline? Gone in favor of a 7000RPM redline. Chassis balance? Same as before but with more understeer, and you can definitely feel the K24's weight up front. The suspension is softer and road feel is gone completely. The transmission is still a great Honda unit, with solid clutch engagement and a great shifter, but without the soul of the engine, it's no fun to shift. Body roll is definitely more pronounced and does interfere with cornering. The engine is too quiet. The car has lost its soul. It's no longer a legitimate sports car, but instead is merely a regular Civic with a bigger engine and a manual transmission. A lot of the Civic's regular econobox traits are left over. Honda just didn't try.

Honda has lost its mojo. No more S2000, no really good Civic Si anymore, no more NSX (the new NSX concept is a total joke)... Unless it comes out with an FR-S/BRZ competitor soon, Honda is going down the river worse than Toyota did, which was fortunately saved by the FR-S.

I think Subaru and Mazda both embody what Toyota and Nissan and Honda used to be. Car companies that make normal cars that don't deserve to be as fun to drive as they end up being, although Subaru is starting to lose it with their use of CVTs across the board. Mazda is still at it though, and their vehicles are still the best of any Japanese manufacturer because of how much driving enjoyment they give you.

Honda, get your damn act together and release a real sports car.

I own one and I agree with you!

[JDMenrique]

Though the '13 Si did improve, I sit at my desktop and can't label it a sports car. It lacks any kind of aggression, its almost like a clone... a car with no soul.

[ruskymx]

I had the opportunity to drive a 12 Civic Si and a FRS on the infield track at Pocono raceway back in July when Scion did our regional launch event. I also rode as a passenger on a few rides in these vehicles as well.

Here's the video I took from the passenger seat while the same guy was driving both cars. My opinion, the Civic Si is not better than a FRS. It IS better than a tC though. Both the Si and the tC felt like tanks compared to the FRS on the course they had set up.

I wish I would've took similar videos in each car they had there which was a few FRS's, Si, tC, tC with TRD springs & 19" wheels, and a GC R-spec.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP3t42-ahnw"]2013 Scion FRS vs 2012 Honda Civic Si infield Course at Pocono - YouTube[/ame]

Ruskymx

[butdamnbrian]

Originally Posted by SupraLove

The 8th Gen Si was a masterfully built vehicle. The shifter was so smooth you would have thought it was connected via a straight linkage. The balance of the chassis was so good, you wouldn't believe that it had a 62/38 front weight bias. Understeer? Very minimal; just a little left in for safety purposes. A bit of body roll was there, but it was controlled and didn't interfere with cornering at all. Suspension was firm, controlled and confident. Torque steer? Nonexistent. If you stepped into the car and drove it without knowing the name or badge on the back, you would think it was a RWD sports sedan. The engine was incredibly fun to wind up, and it had that ridiculously high 8400RPM cutoff that sounded so good. The steering was pretty on-center and had decent feel (although not as good as, say the twins' or the Miata's steering feel), and the clutch engagement was positive and had good feedback.

.....

Honda, get your damn act together and release a real sports car.

great description of the 8th gen, and spot on my own impressions after driving an fg2 for two years. the k20 engine was a joy, and the car felt more integra/rsx than civic. it really was the last of the honda cars to exhibit the old honda sport compact ethos that turned many of us into enthusiasts in the first place. i still love a pristine integra or prelude. the s2000 was a love letter to enthusiasts.

where did your soul go, honda? the strong following quickly developed by the 86 has everything to do with soul. the 86 cars have a ton of soul; they are a tribute to enthusiasts like us.

[Grip Ronin]

i raced my boy with a 2009 si sedan. short ram intake and 3 in skunk 2 cat back. we ran absolutely tied shift for shift never gaining an inch. i have a velocity stack to stock intake and a front pipe.

[JDMenrique]

From 8thcivic.com when comparing the twins to an Si:

Originally Posted by charada1

id rather track an si because they are just purely more entertaining to drive.

My respose:

Originally Posted by sohcBOOST

lol

[4U-GSE]

As long as Toyota/Subi only offers the all season Prius tires on the FR-S/BRZ/GT-86 this community is going to continue to get, in my opinion, ridiculous comparisons.

Toyota could have simply offered the Dunlap Star Spec as an option and I guarantee you that the FR-S or BRZ would never have been even compared with the track package Civic Si or Mustang V6s.

What people fail to take into consideration when comparing the FR-S to a track package Civic Si is the inherent limitations placed on the performance potential of a car when you start with an economy car as your base. You can't realistically or make it even economically practical to change the drive train layout, weight distribution, center of gravity, wheel base, or width of the car you are working with. The FR-S was designed to be a sports car and given the fundamentals needed to achieve that goal while the Civic was originally designed to be an economy car.

You want to make a Civic Si a great track car you can spend thousands of dollars to achieve that goal. Or you can make the FR-S a great track car by simply changing your tires.

[FA5]

I love my Honda. They use to make a lot halo sporty car for the young. Such eg9, itr, dc5......etc. I still have my FA5 since 08 and run like new. The k20 is one of the best motor they ever build which I really love it.
For handling wise, I wouldn't say which is the better because it's really depend on the driver and driving habit. It's more personal preference. Lot of people had said RWD IS BETTER THAN FWD which is I don't agree with. The civic can be tune to very neutral handling with right suspension setup. Please remember that civic is never meant to be pure sport car but sport sedan. Its already gave you the best package on strong motor, sporty chassis and daily capability.

[Turbowned]

There's a new article in Modified magazine comparing the 2012 Civic Si to the 2013 FR-S. Stock-for-stock, the Civic was a second or two faster than the FR-S on track but when they both added identical TSW wheels with Hankook R-S3 rubber and KW suspension, the FR-S had a better lap time by about 2 seconds. I gotta say I'm a little surprised, maybe a little disappointed that the FR-S wasn't ahead by more. Testament to Honda's FWD skillz

Edit: the FR-S was faster in stock trim, too. 126.875 vs. 129.039 stock and 122.607 vs. 124.397

The 2013 Scion FR-S: at least it's faster than a Civic.