T(h)or's GT86 hammer (Europe) - essential track setup

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tor

From my experience, there will be no difference in installing only the fronts. You would have to losen up the rear as well to get the frame to realign with the new way it is seated with the insert stuffed in between.

The ones from STI are not very thick and are only two. Maybe the thickness is visible in this picture:






If I recall correct, they are in the range of 2-3mm? Of course, these are focused more for road usage. Not for a dedicated track car.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The ones from STI are not very thick and are only two. Maybe the thickness is visible in this picture:






If I recall correct, they are in the range of 2-3mm? Of course, these are focused more for road usage. Not for a dedicated track car.

You still have to get the thick metal washers out. See 22 mins into my video. Direct link:

I don't think this is possible without losening up the rear bolts. Even if possible, I don't think it's a good idea as it will put a lot of strain on the bolt in the rear lowering only the front with the rear bolts still tight. The problem is not losening the bolt, by the way. The problem is the subframe moving and misaligning making it difficult to get the bolts that were taken out back in. It could be that you are right that it's easier because the subframe is less likely to misalign with the rear bolts not completely removed.

But in any case if anyone considers doing it and watches my video, you can see there are several steps that you can skip directly and it's actually not that hard and can be done in considerable less time. That was the point of the video, to show what methods work and what don't.

Short version:

Rear:
- Support both front and rear (2 jacks or similar required).
- Take out the rear bolts completely.
- Losen the front bolts 2 cm.
- Insert rear bushings.
- Realign subframe with pressure from your foot, simultaneously screving in the bolts. Adjust pressure until the bolts screw in without effort. Leave them a 2 cm loose.

Front:
- Take the bolts out/brackets off.
- Lower subframe
- Take out big metal washers. Insert the, again together with bushings.
- Raise the subframe
- Screw in bolts. If any resistance lower/raise subfram until they go in without effort.

- Tighten everything up. By the way, the torque specs according to the workshop manual is 145 nm, Whiteline has a much lower value in their instructions. I used the value from the manual.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by norcalpb

What are your impressions of those sub frame inserts? That was prob the most in depth install I've seen, I might have the confidence to do it myself now.

My only reservation is that I don't want to make the car uncomfortable with these inserts.

I just came back from a 1 and half hour drive. The difference is real and substantial. It was pouring rain, 7 deg C (44 F), and on Yokohama AD08R. Perfect conditions to test out a "positive traction" upgrade.

I always disliked the feeling of wheelspin with this car as I could clearly feel the subframe jump back and forward. Felt like wheel hop and like something could break any second. That feeling is mostly gone! The slight remaining motion I suppose is due to the soft diff mounts. In any case, wheelspin feels much more controllable and less "scary" and smooth forward motion. Not that I intend to do burn-outs all the time but it sure is nice that it feels smooth and controllable if wheel spin happens.

Another thing I disliked stock is the "disconnected" feeling from the rear wheels. The car now feels slightly harder and I can feel what each wheel is doing. Kind of like more go-kart feel, which should be logic from making it more rigid.

The comfort didn't change much. But keep in mind that I already have coilovers, is significantly lowered and the Yokohama tires have stiff sidewalls. It may bit slightly more uncomfortable on (very) bumpy road. I didn't notice any noise or vibration. Except it became obvious that I suffer from the TSB 12-140-12 "Popping Sound from Trunk / Rear Shelf Area". I knew that already but it didn't bother me before. I'll get that fixed now.

Otherwise, my advice to everyone: Get them installed.

[Tor]

Last Tuesday I was on track for the first time again this year. I did 3x 15 min "tourist drive" (open for anyone) sessions on the Nürburgring GP circuit. Video is of session 3.

The first two sessions I took it rather easy to get back in the groove and to get a feel for how the car changed with the more HP and the Whiteline inserts. The inserts actually raise the car a bit in the back which I didn't compensate for with the coilovers. Also, since the was no noticeable changes to handling I didn't bother to get an alignment.

Since normally one advice to fix corner-exit understeer (which I didn't have) is to raise the back of the car I expected it to be more loose, which indeed I think is the case. E.g. in the Schumacher S (curve with the "chicken smile" when I lift off the throttle ), which it did worse in one of the previous sessions (which is why I lift).

On the 4th lap, I managed to set a new personal best of 2:34.5. There was a 2:35 in the session as well and the 2:37 twice where I gave way to some other cars. So pretty consistent improvement. I can't say how much is due to the modifications or how much is due to the winter break giving a chance for the impressions of last season to sink in. My heal/toe got a lot better (I think) and I break later, and I take the chicane much more aggressively. Probably that answers the question. Nevertheless, the extra power is noticeable, even if it's not what's making me faster.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC93-8wFo9E"]New season and personal lap record... Nürburgring GP circuit (GT86) - YouTube[/ame]


I also got a ride (first time ever) with a GT86 friend around the Nordschleife. Very fluently well driven and 9:25 despite no effort to chase time. Well driven Maik! I was truly impressed by your skills and the experience of seeing the track. Seeing the video I see that I didn't say much, I was really overwhelmed by taking in all the impressions!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeg_lUGoGJA"]GOPR2303 - YouTube[/ame]


I see now that I HAVE to drive the Nordschleife at some point. I can't live this close and not use the opportunity. Also, it's open far more often than the GP circuit, so it's easier for me to spontaneously to go for a lap or 2.

So at some point, I will raise the car to a sensible Nordschleife friendly height and get the car aligned again.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tor

I am looking so much forward to next year. My goal is to lap in the low 2:30 with a free round. If I hadn't had to give way to him, a 2:35 would have been possible. Shaving 2-3 seconds off that should be realistic.

Originally Posted by Tor

On the 4th lap, I managed to set a new personal best of 2:34.5. There was a 2:35 in the session as well and the 2:37 twice where I gave way to some other cars. So pretty consistent improvement. I can't say how much is due to the modifications or how much is due to the winter break giving a chance for the impressions of last season to sink in.

It looks that an improvement is there and it is consistent, but not on the range you were expecting last year. It is the first time I am mentioning this, but a certain engine tuner created a (catless) header only last summer! They are saying that their header can be used with the stock engine, but it is suggested to use it with their 2.3L stroker kit. I 'm not saying this to praise their stroker kit, but more to emphasize that the change of the stock header on a stock engine to not be of much priority.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

It looks that an improvement is there and it is consistent, but not on the range you were expecting last year. It is the first time I am mentioning this, but a certain engine tuner created a (catless) header only last summer! They are saying that their header can be used with the stock engine, but it is suggested to use it with their 2.3L stroker kit. I 'm not saying this to praise their stroker kit, but more to emphasize that the change of the stock header on a stock engine to not be of much priority.

I guess I didn't express myself accurately. I hope to make a low 2:30 because I improve as a driver. Hence, with "next year" I meant over the next season. And it just started, so let's see in October if I made it or not.

I didn't expect to make a low 2:30 just due to mods. And yes, the header is only 10 hp increase up top compared to the tune I had before, so certainly not a difference to shave off 5 secs on a lap. There is a 15 hp (again compared to tuned) increase at 4000 rpm, but it doesn't help a lot on track. It makes a huge difference on the street though.

The last session was a huge learning experience. A lot of things "clicked" for me. And during the lapping, I could "see" what I did wrong or where I could improve.

One thing that really clicked was looking out the window. It sounds so simple when people say "you need to look ahead in the corner". I think it's human to focus on what is right ahead of us and not 200-500 meters away. So my line was a lot better.

I also tried to force myself to try to be more smooth, because I think I over drove the car a lot looking at the videos from last year, unsettling it with my inputs. This I think I succeeded and that I can now add some more aggressiveness back in at some points.

My brake-points were also better, but could still be later.

A "low 2:30" should be "easy" to achieve. I just need to:
- The first part of the Mercedes arena (first section) I drive too slow too (not even tire squeal).
- Curve 6 (the left-hander after the Mercedes arena), I need to figure out what is faster. I coast after it to set up for the right-hander. Maybe it's more effective not to coast on the sacrifice of not being in as good a position for the right-hander and having to brake more to make it.
- I need to turn in later in the "Schumacher S" (the S curve where I go off the throttle), so I can keep my foot down during the whole curve. It's a much more steep uphill there than what you see in the video, so this is pretty important for the top speed on the next short straight.
- The next left-hand corner I drive too slow and am not using the whole track.
- Increase the speed through the last chicane. I found the line to do it and in the video, the car goes through very easy and nowhere near the limit. The rest is just believing it will go through and the courage to hold more speed.

If I can do all that in the same lap, that's 5+ seconds right there. So in fact, I should have to up the ante and say: My goal for 2017 is to break 2:30. But I'll stay with the low-2:30 to avoid disappointment.


As a side note. Here is what the header brought, with several road-dyno runs for verification. Stock vs. tuned vs. tuned with header. The stock run is not so accurate, but there for a general idea. Tuned vs tuned with header are very accurate (smooth flat road done in opposite directions). Don't pay too much attention to the actual numbers, but to the differences:

[Twinguin]

Originally Posted by Tor

One thing that really clicked was looking out the window. It sounds so simple when people say "you need to look ahead in the corner". I think it's human to focus on what is right ahead of us and not 200-500 meters away. So my line was a lot better.

Totally agree. One of the things my favourite instructor keeps telling me: Look ahead. Works perfect, but I do need to keep reminding all the time.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Tor

I see now that I HAVE to drive the Nordschleife at some point. I can't live this close and not use the opportunity. Also, it's open far more often than the GP circuit, so it's easier for me to spontaneously to go for a lap or 2.

I've been telling you for quite a while... DO IT

[Tor]

Originally Posted by Twinguin

Totally agree. One of the things my favourite instructor keeps telling me: Look ahead. Works perfect, but I do need to keep reminding all the time.

Yes the car really goes where you look. Probably that's why I have to lift in the Schumacher S, because I am too worried looking for the outside curb instead of looking for the apex.

Originally Posted by Iceman

I've been telling you for quite a while... DO IT

I am getting ready...

I actually already raised the car a bit. (sorry stance:nation). So I think it's a somewhat Nordschleife friendly height now (it's still low though!).

Besides from the Nordschleife, what prompted my to do it was that last time I noticed that the front actually rolls quite significantly. So, I'm guessing it was too low and messing up the roll centers.

I raised it about 1 cm in the front. The front was already quite a bit lower that the rear. Now it's about even front and rear. From doing so, I probably lost a bit of camber and my toe out is probably more neutral now (hopefully evenly on both sides). Hopefully, it won't bring back too much of the understeer I had before. At some point, I'll get it aligned again once I decide on where I want to leave it. Maybe it needs to come up another cm.

I drove the car quite a lot today and it does feel like it curves flatter. Though it could be placebo. I also for the first time drove with the dampers with the stiffest rebound setting. It felt surprisingly comfortable! Actually better that it did at a softer setting. Yes, it's harder but some uncomfortable bounciness between the front and the rear axles has diminished.

And it didn't feel like it was skipping over the uneven roads here like I would have expected. This was click 2 (first click not to be used). Normally I track with click 5 of 16, so that might have been a mistake too. In any case, the car feels great right now!

I also added at least 20-30 kg back to the weight of the car. I put all of the interior back in. Last time on track it was completely empty in the rear: Rear seats, center console all panels in the rear and trunk including tools etc. was out (I even took the owners manual out of the glove compartment). And yes, I have a subwoofer too (which I put back it as well) as part of the JBL sound package the first owner had installed when he ordered the car. So it adds up.

Boy, it feels like such a luxurious car now! Last time I drove the 1 1/2 hour to Nürburgring I was wearing a noise-canceling headset. Now it's almost so quiet in comparison that I'm considering looking for a used Milltek muffler.

The good news is that I solved my rattle from the rear parcel shelf to a satisfactory level (riveted it together). Which is why it was all out. There is still a slight bit of rattle but it's now much much better!

On one hand I miss the raspy noise of the empty cabin and the exhaust note, but on the other hand, I will be more inclined to drive it to and from work now (last time I drove the car otherwise was going to the Nürburgring, 12 days ago!).

[Tor]

Originally Posted by Iceman

I've been telling you for quite a while... DO IT

[Rich196]

Enjoyed reading this thread nice one!!

I really need to fit my subframe inserts do you think that make a big difference.

How are you getting on with you XP10s. I have destroyed mine in 3.5 track days. I do, do about 200 miles on a track day. I have got a BBK coming this week.

I would be at the ring at least once a month if I lived where you go, I travel from the UK at least once a year for a petrols heads weekend. This was last year in the 86, first time in the 86.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAzWWgtlcQQ"]New season and personal lap record... Nürburgring GP circuit (GT86) - YouTube[/ame]

[Tor]

Originally Posted by Rich196

Enjoyed reading this thread nice one!!

I really need to fit my subframe inserts do you think that make a big difference.

How are you getting on with you XP10s. I have destroyed mine in 3.5 track days. I do, do about 200 miles on a track day. I have got a BBK coming this week.

I would be at the ring at least once a month if I lived where you go, I travel from the UK at least once a year for a petrols heads weekend. This was last year in the 86, first time in the 86.

The rear subframe bushings certainly make the rear a lot harder. The XP10s are holding up okay for my use. But now that I brake later on the GP circuit than I did before, they are approaching the limit again. Frankly, I'm tired of having headaches over brakes. So the next thing for me will be an AP/Essex Sprint kit. Nice video, that Sprintex sounds good. There was one up for sale in Germany from a dealer that closed down for a really good price. I regret that I didn't pull the trigger.

[Tor]

Here the video from Tuesday:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3V-GA9BFG4"]First time on the Nordschleife (GT86) - YouTube[/ame]

I did 2 rounds, the times were 10:23 and 9:48. Especially the second half of the track was really difficult as I had no idea where the next (blind) corner was going. I have no Playstation experience, only watching YouTube videos and that one lap as a passenger a few weeks ago.

I think I might fork up some cash for instruction. I suppose that will greatly enhance the experience afterward and end up being cheaper than doing 20 rounds trying to figure the track out by myself.

Also, I think my priorities for 2017 may have changed. I probably won't be going that much on the GP circuit anymore.

[Rich196]

Originally Posted by Tor

I think I might fork up some cash for instruction. I suppose that will greatly enhance the experience afterward and end up being cheaper than doing 20 rounds trying to figure the track out by myself.

Also, I think my priorities for 2017 may have changed. I probably won't be going that much on the GP circuit anymore.

My honest opinion is don't. Looking at the way you drive you know how to handle the car. I never have instruction. I probably done 50 laps over 5 years when that video in the 86 was taken.

I went to the ring having never driven it before in person, but having done 100's of laps on forza on the xbox as a "kid" I am 26, and first went to the ring 5 years ago.

I have been driving the ring on the xbox since before I could drive. Everyone says playing it on the xbox is nothing like the real thing! They are right, but after less than 5 laps I knew the corner order, which is a big help.

Im sure you have heard of Dale from Bridge to gantry, but look at his facebook group and look at his track guides, here is a good one:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdUZPlkFcEA"]BTG's video guide to your first lap of the Nürburgring Nordschleife - YouTube[/ame]

That will give you a guide tour of what to look for, and lines.

Following on from this you could go and see and see Martin at the LindenHoff, opposite the BMW test centre.

https://www.facebook.com/lindenhofnurburg/?fref=ts

A nice straight talking English man, ask him if will take you through his "safety video" this is just a video of the lap that he talks you through to give you pointers on where to turn in and what to be very careful of.

That lap of mine in the 86 was done on MPSS tyres you can subtract another 15-20s on semi slicks without trying any harder, and is as fast as I was prepared to go during TF.

Obviously I am a long way from home, and I want to drive the car back in one piece, and that's my main goal, but that lap I believe I have gone as fast as I safely can without more track knowledge and experience.
The reason I know this is up until the last few laps I had been doing 8:50- 8:55 laps consistently all trip. Then Dale from bridge to gantry came up behind me in the M3 ring taxi. He took a good while to pass me so I knew I wasn't going "slow", but he recognised my car and slowed up a little and allowed me to follow his lines. This made the biggest difference, and all my laps after that were 8:34 - 8:40. This is closest to instruction I have ever been, and I believe its only worth getting instruction when you have a good basic knowledge of the track.

I am now looking to do trackdays there, for more seat time with less traffic, and possibly get some instruction from a few fast friends. (Like Nige:
Check his MK2 golf out, hes done a few hundred laps of the ring. 7:45 BTG
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLMvuVZHOGI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLMvuVZHOGI)[/ame]
It also means I dont have issue of being uninsured during TF, not a problem you suffer luckily!

Also BBK wise. I have coming next week a AP kit:
AP9200 calliper
330x28mm disc, fully floating
Only a very small brake bias change.

£1600 GBP. Link is below. I will give you some feedback when I get it if you are interested:

http://www.reyland.co.uk/subaru-impreza/

Sorry if I have taken over your thread!