BRZ vs E46 M3

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I feel like this was inspired by a sport that promotes high speed extreme left turning.

BOOGITY BOOGITY BOOGITY LETS GO DAYTONA RACIN' BABY!

I have a strange feeling I'm going to be the only member of this board glued to my TV tomorrow for the Florida Bump-Draft Derby.

However, that was inspired by some of the pro-street cars I've helped build. And the GTO.R.

[Deslock]

I just found and read through this thread. Thanks for the laughs everyone.

FYI this (sensationally titled and presumptuous, but mostly spot on) bmwblog article that was posted in the E30 thread applies to many of the arguments here.

Originally Posted by tree fingers

Progress is, essentially, re-creating a 90's BMW, and selling it for less? That's an interesting take on progress.

Since the E30 M3 is awesome, and was 2-3X the price of the average car (while the FT86 will be cheaper than the average car), I'm fine with that sort of progress.

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I can't deal with you anymore. You're a judgemental extremist that refuses to see the "compromise" in anything outside your own ideals. You pretend as though there isn't anything practical out there past 3000lb's now THAT's "LUDICROUS". What about lightening an average weight car is Ludicrous? A car doesn't NEED to be 2400lbs to perform superbly, and frankly many people ENJOY high horsepower mid-weight vehicles. And truthfully I don't consider something a "pig" or overweight until it reaches higher than 3800lbs, and I honestly could give less of a f*** whether or not YOU agree with that statement. Adding you to the ignore list now, your mentality and narrowminded view of the automotive world angers me.

That wasn't directed at me, but I think you're being a bit dramatic.

It's just a question of emphasis. Larger, heavier cars can be enjoyable, and it's understandable why many prioritize power and acceleration (more than low weight and feel). But every car is a compromise, and the FT86 doesn't make much sense for those people.

Overall, I agree with ZDan, and for my preferences even the FT86 is a tad hefty. If that makes me a narrow-minded extremist in your view, then you should add me to your ignore list as well.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Deslock

That wasn't directed at me, but I think you're being a bit dramatic.

It's just a question of emphasis. Larger, heavier cars can be enjoyable, and it's understandable why many prioritize power and acceleration (more than low weight and feel). But every car is a compromise, and the FT86 doesn't make much sense for those people.

Overall, I agree with ZDan, and for my preferences even the FT86 is a tad hefty. If that makes me a narrow-minded extremist in your view, then you should add me to your ignore list as well.

You're right, it wasn't directed at you so why do you remind me of that guy that jumps in the middle of an arguement and assumes the role of the other person with half the story? Go read through the 1000+ posts on the FRS vs GC thread then reread my comment; I said what I said because I PERSONALLY can't deal with personalities like ZDan's, hence the reason I said "I can't deal with you anymore". Past a certain point it's like bashing your head against a wall and I was never able to handle practitioners of metaphysical subjectivism. I called him what I called him because he took the need to comfortably sit 4-5 people in a vehicle that's still very performance capable and turned it into "If you want to fit that many people buy a minivan". It simply escapes me how a person can be so adament over the point they're making that they REFUSE to look at what the other party is saying from their perspective. Simple rules for not turning a conversation into an emotional arguement: Think about what you want to say and how best to say it, Speak your piece, Listen to the counter arguement, consider what was said and make as educated a retort as possible. If you can't understand past that and still want to play the "YEAH! WHAT HE SAID!" guy then yes I'll do as you ask and add you to my ignore list.


Edit: Know what? I'm done with this thread, I dislike arguing especially when it's this pointless. I'm just going to agree to disagree.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

BOOGITY BOOGITY BOOGITY LETS GO DAYTONA RACIN' BABY!

I have a strange feeling I'm going to be the only member of this board glued to my TV tomorrow for the Florida Bump-Draft Derby.

Nope, I'll be infront of my TV beer in hand

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Deslock

I just found and read through this thread. Thanks for the laughs everyone.

FYI this (sensationally titled and presumptuous, but mostly spot on) bmwblog article that was posted in the E30 thread applies to many of the arguments here.


Since the E30 M3 is awesome, and was 2-3X the price of the average car (while the FT86 will be cheaper than the average car), I'm fine with that sort of progress.


That wasn't directed at me, but I think you're being a bit dramatic.

It's just a question of emphasis. Larger, heavier cars can be enjoyable, and it's understandable why many prioritize power and acceleration (more than low weight and feel). But every car is a compromise, and the FT86 doesn't make much sense for those people.

Overall, I agree with ZDan, and for my preferences even the FT86 is a tad hefty. If that makes me a narrow-minded extremist in your view, then you should add me to your ignore list as well.

These two points make the most sense. Some people will view the FR-S as a overweight car if they are coming from something else much lighter and every car is really a compromise IMO. The test drive will be the deciding factor though.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

You're right, it wasn't directed at you so why do you remind me of that guy that jumps in the middle of an arguement and assumes the role of the other person with half the story?

I called him what I called him because he took the need to comfortably sit 4-5 people in a vehicle that's still very performance capable and turned it into "If you want to fit that many people buy a minivan".

Funny how often people frequently exhibit the very negative behavior that they accuse others of!

I didn't say or even imply that "If you want to fit that many people buy a minivan"!

For what it's worth, I think it's FINE for BMW to build cars that fit 4-5 people comfortably, provide excellent performance, and that aren't minivans. I think it's GREAT that cars like the 1 Series M (dumb name, though, shoulda gone with "M135i") and M3 exist, even if I find them to be overweight. For me, the M3 makes for a BRILLIANT M5, and the 1M makes for a great M4.

I just think that they could also build one or two rwd cars that are much smaller and lighterweight like the FR-S/BRZ or E30 M3!
Since the 1- and 3-series are already called for by bigger/heavier cars, I propose a 1/2- and a 2/3-series (or .5- and .7-series?)

Call me crazy, but I also think it would be mega-awesome of them to build a small/lightweight 2-seater similar to the Miata (roadster) or 240Z (fixed-roof coupe). We'll see how the "2-series" comes out, hopefully smaller/lighter than what I'm expecting...

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Call me crazy, but I also think it would be mega-awesome of them to build a small/lightweight 2-seater similar to the Miata (roadster) or 240Z (fixed-roof coupe). We'll see how the "2-series" comes out, hopefully smaller/lighter than what I'm expecting...

If they do ever build a small car, it'll be priced like an Elise, not an FR-S. Be prepared for that. Honestly, BMW has more invested in their brand image than your 25k is worth to them.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

If they do ever build a small car, it'll be priced like an Elise, not an FR-S. Be prepared for that. Honestly, BMW has more invested in their brand image than your 25k is worth to them.

Every time this comes up, people suggest "oh, you want them to build an Elise"! Well, sure, that'd be great, but there's a GIANT 1000 lb. gulf between the smallest/lightest BMW and an Elise!

There is no reason that they couldn't build a car that's smaller and lighter-weight than the 128i priced in the high20s/low30s and make money on it. Smaller chassis = lighter-weight and cheaper. Smaller, less powerful engine = lighter-weight and cheaper. Smaller wheels/tires = lighter-weight and cheaper. Smaller brakes = lighter-weight and cheaper. etc.

If they want to continue in the Cadillac/Mercedes direction, of course that's their prerogative. As a fan of smaller/lighter-weight rwd sports/sporty cars, the kind that BMW *used* to build, I am free to think that they kinda suck for it.

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Every time this comes up, people suggest "oh, you want them to build an Elise"! Well, sure, that'd be great, but there's a GIANT 1000 lb. gulf between the smallest/lightest BMW and an Elise!

There is no reason that they couldn't build a car that's smaller and lighter-weight than the 128i priced in the high20s/low30s and make money on it. Smaller chassis = lighter-weight and cheaper. Smaller, less powerful engine = lighter-weight and cheaper. Smaller wheels/tires = lighter-weight and cheaper. Smaller brakes = lighter-weight and cheaper. etc.

If they want to continue in the Cadillac/Mercedes direction, of course that's their prerogative. As a fan of smaller/lighter-weight rwd sports/sporty cars, the kind that BMW *used* to build, I am free to think that they kinda suck for it.

You're free to think what you want. Profitable or not, they don't want to sell anything remotely close to the 20k range because they don't want yuppies to flee to MB because they think that BMW is letting the riff-raff in. At 25k, BMW literally does not want your money because they sell a brand image of exclusivity, even if the fact of the matter is that you can get a lease on a Z4 3.0 for $400/mo if you time it right.

I'm not saying that it will be an Elise. I'm saying it'll be priced in that range because cheap is not something that BMW does. They'll sell an enthusiast's car for someone who make 90k a year, not 40k just out of college, even if, fundamentally, that's all that car is worth.


Additionally, this assertion that building a smaller car that is lighter will be cheaper isn't actually true. The cost to bring a brand new car to market depends less on the size of the vehicle and more on the part's sharing. Designing a new Z1 chassis is just as expensive as designing a new 7er chassis. Tooling for mass production of a new Z1 is just as expensive as tooling for mass production of the new 5er. Yes, there will be savings on sourcing smaller brakes, and possibly a smaller engine, probably from the lower end European market 1er. However, if they choose to develop a new engine, powerplant development costs for an I4 is no less than any other motor. Additionally, if BMW chooses, and they will, to include things like power heated leather seats and knee, side, curtain, frontal, and rollover airbags, they might have to use expensive materials to keep the weight down. BMW has standards for interior trim and safety feature to maintain, and will not lower them to sell to recent college grads.

On the other hand, if they developed and sold the car under the Mini marque, that'd be a completely different story. That large market 25-30k buyers is exactly WHY they bought the rights to and rereleased Mini. That market, and that brand, is exactly where such a car would make perfect sense for BMW. It just won't say BMW.

[ZDan]

I make WAY more than 90k a year, and BMW does not build a car that I want to buy.

It's good that they literally don't want my money (seems odd, but if you said it I'm sure it must be true), because they're literally not going to get it!

I find it curious that so many people worship automakers enough to think that they can DO NO WRONG, and that, whatever they do, it MUST be the best/rightest/most profitable path.

You may be right, they may make more money this way. But I think they'd make more by appealing to a larger audience and selling more cars. Hell, why not make a rwd Mini line, that'd be fine with me, and then they can keep their precious cultivated snooty image for the spinning propeller badge.

[ZDan]

Another point: OK, so let's say they *won't* build a car that stickers for less than $30k. Fine. Build some freaking smaller/lighterweight sports/sporty cars and price them in the 30s. I'd buy the hell out of a 30k+ BMW FR-S with a few more hp.

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I make WAY more than 90k a year, and BMW does not build a car that I want to buy.

It's good that they literally don't want my money (seems odd, but if you said it I'm sure it must be true), because they're literally not going to get it!

I find it curious that so many people worship automakers enough to think that they can DO NO WRONG, and that, whatever they do, it MUST be the best/rightest/most profitable path.

You may be right, they may make more money this way. But I think they'd make more by appealing to a larger audience and selling more cars. Hell, why not make a rwd Mini line, that'd be fine with me, and then they can keep their precious cultivated snooty image for the spinning propeller badge.

Read my edit. I have no personal stake in BMW or their business practices. All I'm saying is that they've chosen this path and built a business model around it. They're fairly committed.

And you are also clearly not the kind of person who wants a car with creature comforts. Which is fine. BMW is just not the brand for you then. They are big on creature comforts.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Another point: OK, so let's say they *won't* build a car that stickers for less than $30k. Fine. Build some freaking smaller/lighterweight sports/sporty cars and price them in the 30s. I'd buy the hell out of a 30k+ BMW FR-S with a few more hp.

In terms of marketing, it'd have to be more expensive than a base 128i, because the market assumption is that if you are buying a sports car, it's already a luxury, so you should pay more for it. However, it can't be more expensive than a 335i coupe, because the 335i coupe is just flat out faster, even if it's less compelling. I'd price such a car around 38k, but well equipped from the factory with limited options. Slot it in under the Z4 line. The current Z4 sDrive28i (with its 2.0T DI 240hp I4) starts at 48k. Which is just obscene.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Read my edit. I have no personal stake in BMW or their business practices. All I'm saying is that they've chosen this path and built a business model around it. They're fairly committed.

Yeah, it sure looks that way

And you are also clearly not the kind of person who wants a car with creature comforts. Which is fine. BMW is just not the brand for you then. They are big on creature comforts.

Even stupid, non-intuitive things like i-drive. Yeah, the BMW that I used to think was cool clearly just doesn't exist any more. It's too bad that they wanna be just another luxury car maker, I mean we already have Mercedes, Cadillac, etc. etc. Too bad they couldn't just be the best BMW they could be and give us modern versions of the 2002 and E30 M3. I know, wah wah wah!

In terms of marketing, it'd have to be more expensive than a base 128i, because the market assumption is that if you are buying a sports car, it's already a luxury, so you should pay more for it.

IMO, the 1-series should already *be* the car I'm talking about. Why they went to the trouble to create a car barely smaller or lighter than the 3-series, whose only competition *is* the 3-series, defies all logic and reason. To me...
IMO, the 1-series should have been 4-cylinder only and *significantly* smaller and lighter than the 3 instead of 95% of a 3 with the same engines.

However, it can't be more expensive than a 335i coupe, because the 335i coupe is just flat out faster, even if it's less compelling. I'd price such a car around 38k, but well equipped from the factory with limited options. Slot it in under the Z4 line. The current Z4 sDrive28i (with its 2.0T DI 240hp I4) starts at 48k. Which is just obscene.

It also has an obscenely ridiculous name! Even worse than "1 Series M"!

Ah well, we shall see what the 2-series winds up being. My bet: oversized and overweight!

[serialk11r]

If I'm not mistaken, BMW wants to be the "sporty" luxury car maker. They pander to rich people who want a slightly harder suspension and "lightweight chassis" (compared to 2 ton Mercedes) so they can feel like they have a sporty car, not people who actually want a sports car.

At least that's how it looks now. It makes good money! Building a serious sports car for people who could care less about actual capability of their car would be a waste.