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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 06-22-2016, 02:17 AM   #4243
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I'm really starting to wonder how much of this lack of BRZ attendance is due to the hooting and hollering on this forum versus the actual performance of the car at events. If I had a BRZ and hadn't autocrossed it before I sure as hell wouldn't come out if I had all these people telling me I'd lose to every FR-S because they have an advantage I'll never be able to match.

Everyone tells me that I can't beat a turbo MR-2 at a pro because they gain so much time on the launch but I still go to them. Maybe I should stop attending pros in CS now because I can't launch as fast as the other cars. You know what... I'm going to write a letter to the board asking that the FR-S be re-classed for Pros because it's not competitive. Of course, I'll wait until they move the BRZ first so that they then have to move the BRZ a second time when they complain about the FR-S getting moved back in with them.


Seriously though. How about someone out there go and get an auto-x course setup, get a fully prepped CS BRZ and CS FR-S, get the same damn driver, and have them drive the course 10 times each (alternating between runs) with each car? Let's compare the data and see what the difference really is. Also don't forget to let the driver run the course 3 times with a completely different car prior to that so we can rule out course knowledge bias as well.
Just look at nats results bro. The fastest BRZ was driven by a multi-time jacket winner, and was not well placed.

Also DS participation is soft. We'd be doing them a favor. Additionally I suspect the TRD-sprung FRS will get buried by the ND at nats - seriously, go drive an ND, they are stupid easy to turn quick times in - and also by the updated 2017 model, plus whatever the SEB decides to shuffle down from BS.

In a year you're going to be very happy to put your stock springs back on and go WRX hunting. Unless you're all silly enough to write your letter against it, in which case, have fun fighting Caymans/Boxsters and 2017 twins with faster gearing/potentially no torque dip. Spring swapping is technically legal for us, but not in the spirit of street class rules. Don't expect your car to stay competitive for too much longer; the SEB can't outlaw those springs without massively breaking a lot of things, so they like to bury stuff like that instead (see: MX-5 MSR, Solstice Z0K, Boss 302 Laguna Seca, and others).
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Old 06-22-2016, 08:05 AM   #4244
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I was one of those who wrote a letter last year after running my non-TRD FR-S. I was still able to trophy last year at Toledo against TRD FRS's and BRZs. I codrove a TRD car at Nationals last year. I've been running CS for 4 years now but only half of this year on TRD stuff, but I am convinced that the advantages of the TRD stuff only comes into play at the important concrete lots with the best drivers. I think tire and shock choice are a bigger factor. At most of my local lots, I don't even believe there is any difference between the BRZ and FR-S (driven both back-to-back multiple times).

I originally chose the FR-S because it was lighter and cheaper than the BRZ. Whatever the ruling may be for a split or remaining in CS, I will be fine with it and adjust. Maybe I'll buy a BRZ for DS (or put my springs back on), maybe a 986S for CS, maybe a Fiata, but the street classes are bound to change when a newer and faster car comes into the class. I've been pretty bummed this year getting massacred by the local ND which is regularly raw timing STX and most of STR. I felt a little better after seeing it dominate at Wilmington Pro and last weekend's DC Tour (let's not look at its gap to me), but I'm going to give it a go one more time in Lincoln this year in my car.

We'll see how the season pans out... as long as I'm still having fun, I'm good. I'll still be out there in CS, DS, or wherever they put it. If it's not the car to have, perhaps it's time to move to the next car and use my FR-S as just a fun car to own.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:45 AM   #4245
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Well, the 4 cars could grow with whatever rate the fr-s grew over those 2 years, but yeah, I want to know what Ogburn, Grogan, the Potockis, Oscar, Alan and other really good fr-s drivers would've done if they'd have got the brz when they bought the car. They're good enough nationally for the TRD allowances to make an impact.

Would they just bite the bullet and trade cars? Would they write to SCCA for allowances? or class changes?

I know it's hypothetical, but what would you do? Just trying to get perspective.

to you too!!
Can't say what they might have done, but part of my decision was the weight, the reports of greater tossability, and lower price. The BRZ for me would have been an outlet only if the FR-S interior was truly unbearable.

I spent all last year running with the Potockis at locals. They were on the springs, I was not. We traded finishing positions all year long. And a BRZ on MCS was always up at the top, among or ahead of us, too. FWIW.

There is some truth to Locust's suggestion that "The sky is falling" chatter from the subaru side of the debate does become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know that if I JUST bought a BRZ, then read this forum, I wouldn't autocross it at all, because I'd be convinced I have to go to STX, and I don't have 8-10k in "well-why-not" money to do so.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:53 AM   #4246
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Seriously though. How about someone out there go and get an auto-x course setup, get a fully prepped CS BRZ and CS FR-S, get the same damn driver, and have them drive the course 10 times each (alternating between runs) with each car? Let's compare the data and see what the difference really is. Also don't forget to let the driver run the course 3 times with a completely different car prior to that so we can rule out course knowledge bias as well.




Me and Nik J will do this eventually, but I think you need to change the wheels and tires too for it to be a fair comparison. The difference of full tread tires ('Stones), to 80 run worn tires is a larger change in performance than a rear bar and TRD springs.
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Old 06-22-2016, 05:19 PM   #4247
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Seriously though. How about someone out there go and get an auto-x course setup, get a fully prepped CS BRZ and CS FR-S, get the same damn driver, and have them drive the course 10 times each (alternating between runs) with each car? Let's compare the data and see what the difference really is. Also don't forget to let the driver run the course 3 times with a completely different car prior to that so we can rule out course knowledge bias as well.

I did this at test and tune to shut up a local BRZ person complaining about my TRD FRS.
A couple of cars in between and 3 runs each car.
I was 0.2 slower in the BRZ on a 45 second course.
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:09 PM   #4248
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I did this at test and tune to shut up a local BRZ person complaining about my TRD FRS.
A couple of cars in between and 3 runs each car.
I was 0.2 slower in the BRZ on a 45 second course.
But it's also not your car and your tires/gas level/setup could have all been different. A lot of factors to account for. To truly test it we need a neutral driver, completely filled gas tanks to ensure they're exactly the same, and brand new tires on each car. You're going to drive someone else's car differently than you'll drive your own.
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Old 06-27-2016, 02:28 PM   #4249
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But it's also not your car and your tires/gas level/setup could have all been different. A lot of factors to account for. To truly test it we need a neutral driver, completely filled gas tanks to ensure they're exactly the same, and brand new tires on each car. You're going to drive someone else's car differently than you'll drive your own.
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Old 06-27-2016, 02:37 PM   #4250
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But it's also not your car and your tires/gas level/setup could have all been different. A lot of factors to account for. To truly test it we need a neutral driver, completely filled gas tanks to ensure they're exactly the same, and brand new tires on each car. You're going to drive someone else's car differently than you'll drive your own.

I'm a car whore. I drive them all them all same
As for the rest. I think you're over thinking this.
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Old 06-28-2016, 08:27 AM   #4251
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Ibut a lot of friends have a BRZ because it's simply a nicer car to daily drive and serve as a weekend warrior. The alcantara, heated seats and general fit and finish of the BRZ make it a better daily.
That's the thing though, the people who are worried about having leather and climate control for to keep it a nice daily driver are not the people winning trophies at Nationals. The performance difference between TRD and non-TRD is at the top level guys, not at the people competing for the bottom half. In other words, tell your friends to stop their belly-aching because it isn't making a shit bit of difference to them.
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Old 06-28-2016, 03:13 PM   #4252
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That's the thing though, the people who are worried about having leather and climate control for to keep it a nice daily driver are not the people winning trophies at Nationals. The performance difference between TRD and non-TRD is at the top level guys, not at the people competing for the bottom half. In other words, tell your friends to stop their belly-aching because it isn't making a shit bit of difference to them.
I'll start letting anyone I hear discussing rules know they are only written for the top-level guys.
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Old 06-28-2016, 05:17 PM   #4253
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I'll start letting anyone I hear discussing rules know they are only written for the top-level guys.
Eh, i feel like the context has been lost. My point was that it is awful to hear people that just won't even race their BRZ because of the "crazy performance difference" to the TRD FR-S. But for most of those people, the difference is negligible (myself included). So yes, petition your asses off to get your car into a class that works better for you but don't stop competing just because you are butt-hurt that the FR-S guys got a slight advantage over you.

It kinda sucks that this thread has gone from being great info to pages and pages of
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Old 06-29-2016, 11:57 AM   #4254
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I'll start letting anyone I hear discussing rules know they are only written for the top-level guys.
How many RX-8s that have won tours/nationals had a sunroof on them? Pointy end is pointy.

Read the rules. Figure out what about them works in your favor. THEN make decisions about how to spend money. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to spend money on something, only to then have to spend that money again to do it correctly.
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:53 PM   #4255
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How many RX-8s that have won tours/nationals had a sunroof on them? Pointy end is pointy.

Read the rules. Figure out what about them works in your favor. THEN make decisions about how to spend money. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to spend money on something, only to then have to spend that money again to do it correctly.
I don't know. I have a BRZ Limited with nothing but a sway bar and a heavy exhaust, and I'm only mediocre at best. A BRZ owner feeling slighted, whether you agree or not, is 100% understandable. If someone is still going on about it, you aren't going to change their minds. Especially by telling them, essentially, "forget it, you aren't good enough to matter."

Take it from a guy that isn't good enough to matter - it still sucks.
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Old 06-29-2016, 01:13 PM   #4256
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So im curious. I've been racing in the novice class for over half a season now, prior to that i've been to a hand full of autocross events. Currently i'm still rolling on stock tires, the only modification i have is coilover(yes i know it throw me into STX). While i wait for my wheels(TC105N) and tires(RE71R) to come in, my last 3-4 sessions has been fairly consistent, time wise. i've had instructors sit in the car with me, and they all say i'm over driving the tires. So my question is, for those who raced on stock tires and swapped to RE71Rs, how much time did you think you've shaved off on average? i know a buddy who was within half a sec of me leaped by 3-5sec after he swapped from stock shitty tires to RE71R.

Its getting frustrating that i can't get better time. i'm sure the driver(me) still have a lot of improvements to make, and i will keep doing so till my tires get here. areas i could work on at the moment is still looking ahead, braking early and finding the correct line.
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