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Old 01-22-2020, 08:10 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Th3rdSun View Post
Thanks for your feedback. I feel like everyone that's against more power for this car should read this. Sounds like you went from a b-cup to a solid c-cup,instead of just going double d's,so to speak.

Driving around,I feel like this car is working harder than it probably needs to and going FI with not too crazy amount of boost just makes the car better than what it is. And you did exactly what I figured what needs to be done. Wider tires are an absolute must,and I didn't even think about the clutch.Do you think a short shifter would improve driving even more?

Anyway,I'll never understand why people are against more power,especially considering that even though the car is 200 hp,it's not putting that to the wheels. 186~ish to the wheels isn't very awe inspiring for this car,imo,but what the hell do I know? I just daily it every single day,for the past 4 1/2 years.

"Driving around,I feel like this car is working harder than it probably needs to"

That is what some people enjoy. Keeping the revs high while not breaking speed limits is fun. Being able to drive it like a commuter car and getting 30+ mpg when you need to is also nice. Not having to really worry about going speeds that will get you arrested unless you really mean to go that fast is nice.

I totally understand the allure of more power. I had a Saab Viggen that had 260 or so hp. If you floored that car from a stop you went sideways because of the torque steer. It was very fun. I've owned or driven multiple other powerful cars, they were fun for what they were.
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Old 01-22-2020, 10:48 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by alan.chalkley View Post
More power = more fuel consumption = more trips to the fuel station or a much larger fuel tank.
With a larger engine + turbo + more fuel weight , what happens with balance and brakes?
+ more emissions.


The vast majority of the first world nations (especially the USA and Europe) really REALLY frown on increasing emissions and reducing mileage from current or new model cars. There are scads of international laws against doing it. It isn't up to the car companies to randomly decide to throw more power at cars without considering all these laws.
It is only going to get tighter and more restrictive over the next 5 years so everybody may as well learn to live with it.
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Old 01-22-2020, 10:52 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by why? View Post
"Driving around,I feel like this car is working harder than it probably needs to"

That is what some people enjoy. Keeping the revs high while not breaking speed limits is fun. Being able to drive it like a commuter car and getting 30+ mpg when you need to is also nice. Not having to really worry about going speeds that will get you arrested unless you really mean to go that fast is nice.
The problem,for me at least,is that after years and years of making the car work hard,it can't be good for longevity. It's like making a 70 year old run,instead of walking,every where he goes. Shit breaks down easier the harder it's pushed over time.Maybe it's an inaccurate comparison,but when I'm driving and pushing my car,that's what it feels like.
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:06 AM   #424
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The problem,for me at least,is that after years and years of making the car work hard,it can't be good for longevity. It's like making a 70 year old run,instead of walking,every where he goes. Shit breaks down easier the harder it's pushed over time.Maybe it's an inaccurate comparison,but when I'm driving and pushing my car,that's what it feels like.
They are engineered to run to redline. Once warmed up and properly maintained they can do it every single day. It's really nothing to worry about.
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:08 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by alan.chalkley View Post
More power = more fuel consumption = more trips to the fuel station or a much larger fuel tank.
With a larger engine + turbo + more fuel weight , what happens with balance and brakes?
You just make everything bigger of course. If they really add the 2.4T engine, and increase everything else to match this car will be more of a Camaro 4T 1LE competitor than it would be a Miata competitor.

We will have to wait a bit longer to see what happens.
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:17 AM   #426
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I think you will find that many are not against people wanting more power. I for one only put up a fuss when people claim they don't have enough power for normal day to day driving. The guys that think every single car on the road will "beat" them, can't go fast enough to merge with traffic, can't pass a Yugo on a straight, etc. The stock power is more than enough for normal driving and even at 186 at the wheels is well above the average for a car of this weight.
People that want more power is one thing. People that say it "needs" more power to be functional are another. This is especially true when many that state it is no good have little or no time behind the wheel.
In 180,000 miles and 5 years I have not once ran into a situation where I felt I "needed" more power but then again I have never tried to take on Mustangs at stop lights so what the hell do I know?
I think the only time the horsepower argument bothers me is when people insist is NEEDS 350 hp minimum and yet still be cheaper than the outgoing cost. Or those who claim with assurance that Subaru could "easily" put the WRX motor in with little to no added cost to the car. Otherwise, I've had a Cossie kit and found their claimed 280 to be phenomenal and still enough to enjoy for day to day. But I also don't go looking to race Mustangs or whatever else.
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:53 AM   #427
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You just make everything bigger of course. If they really add the 2.4T engine, and increase everything else to match this car will be more of a Camaro 4T 1LE competitor than it would be a Miata competitor.

We will have to wait a bit longer to see what happens.
This is exactly what I don't want to happen with the next gen. If the car gets more power but balloons up to Camaro 4cyl weight, what's the point? There's already a pretty good competition for the Camaro in the Mustang (and arguably the 370z/Gen Coupe).

IMO the Twins found a niche in being a 4-seat coupe Miata competitor.
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Old 01-22-2020, 12:13 PM   #428
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More power = more fuel consumption = more trips to the fuel station or a much larger fuel tank.
Just to get my last quip in here, I still can average 35MPG on the interstate with 330whp on a turbo setup (Calculated using Trip A between fill ups and fuel dispensed into my tank from the gas pump readout). Being able to deliver or use more fuel =/= actually using it.
From a manufacturer spec though, it would mean worse fuel economy overall because the average drive has poor pedal control or restraint and their EPA estimate needs to reflect that.

Sorry, I'll stop defending turbo builds now. In this thread.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:51 PM   #429
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I think the only time the horsepower argument bothers me is when people insist is NEEDS 350 hp minimum and yet still be cheaper than the outgoing cost.
Not calling you a liar,but I've never hear a single person say that.

I've always thought that right out of the box,it would be a better car with about 225hp to the wheels with tires wider than 210.I could even go for 200hp to the wheels.

350hp makes it a completely different car,and impossible to sell it at it's current price point.
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Old 01-22-2020, 02:12 PM   #430
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Not calling you a liar,but I've never hear a single person say that.

I've always thought that right out of the box,it would be a better car with about 225hp to the wheels with tires wider than 210.I could even go for 200hp to the wheels.

350hp makes it a completely different car,and impossible to sell it at it's current price point.
All sorts of people say it should be 300+ and still cost the same (or less). It is one of the main points in many "What do you want next" threads. It is right up there with the "If the aftermarket can do it then it is easy for the company" comments.
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Old 01-22-2020, 03:37 PM   #431
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Not calling you a liar,but I've never hear a single person say that.

I've always thought that right out of the box,it would be a better car with about 225hp to the wheels with tires wider than 210.I could even go for 200hp to the wheels.

350hp makes it a completely different car,and impossible to sell it at it's current price point.
Just look at any youtube video or article about the twins. In person is not as common.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:04 PM   #432
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Just look at any youtube video or article about the twins. In person is not as common.
Fair enough.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:23 AM   #433
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The problem,for me at least,is that after years and years of making the car work hard,it can't be good for longevity. It's like making a 70 year old run,instead of walking,every where he goes. Shit breaks down easier the harder it's pushed over time.Maybe it's an inaccurate comparison,but when I'm driving and pushing my car,that's what it feels like.
That's silly. Unless you sit at redline for the majority of the time you drive it, the car will be fine.
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Old 01-23-2020, 08:19 AM   #434
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This is why I think the FA24DIT is the perfect engine.
It is under 300hp stock. It is not that much more “stuff” than the FA20DIT, but it is a whole lot more motor for modding. It has already been proven to be way beefier built than the WRX’s FA20DIT and can offer some ridiculous reliable power on stock internals.

I think it’s the perfect motor for the 86/BRZ. Yes, it will require a bit more beef in the traction dept which may add a little weight. I’d be perfectly fine with a 3,000lb FA24DIT powered low, RWD coupe. Talk about a blast. Stock power levels are reasonable and a simple catless Stg 2 COBB Protune would yield absolutely ridiculous HP and Torque numbers with a fat, ball-busting torque band starting WAY down low. In the Ascent, it makes all of its numbers on 87 octane - nothing more, so TONs of headroom. It’d be freakin heaven.

I have an FA24DIT and it’s a jewel of an engine. This car needs it.

Take 25% off the top for usable power in the current car. That’s what I get in Colorado @ 6,800ft. Then take x% for drivetrain loss. That doesn’t leave you much left from an already anemic torque band. BRZs don’t sell well up here because they are extremely underpowered. One of the best handling, most connected, funnest feeling cars to drive, but horribly slow, getting beat by most cars on the road up here. I don’t want that, but I want everything else that is the BRZ.

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