Contemplating FRS for track car

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Enkrow

Check out these threads for power questions:https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81493
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55450

This source also has some interesting dyno info: https://www.pointmeby.com/2017/10/18...esults-15-86s/

TL;DR: Those headers with a tune alone are an easy +20 whp with 91 oct fuel. 93, or E85 will net you even more.

Thanks! So maybe 30 whp with intake and fatback?

I can always run race fuel at the track and get a bit more. If the car is capable of a 2:04 at ecrat full weight, I don't think I'll get bored with it. That is about what my c6 was on street tires. Miata is about 15 seconds slower. There are a lot of guys out here that run 2:02-2:08 times. I bet 2 flat is possible with good tires on a cold day with healthy weight reduction.

Is there any dreaded maintenance or repair that is just miserable? Any glaring weakspots?

[14stu]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Thanks! So maybe 30 whp with intake and fatback?

I can always run race fuel at the track and get a bit more. If the car is capable of a 2:04 at ecrat full weight, I don't think I'll get bored with it. That is about what my c6 was on street tires. Miata is about 15 seconds slower. There are a lot of guys out here that run 2:02-2:08 times. I bet 2 flat is possible with good tires on a cold day with healthy weight reduction.

Is there any dreaded maintenance or repair that is just miserable? Any glaring weakspots?

The 2013-2014 have issues with coilpacks, and if you lower the car too much you can start to get axle issues with repeated hard launches (not an issue at the track).

The early throwout bearings in the clutch are a bit weak, but that's not a huge concern since for a track car when they go out the clutch won't be far behind (throwout bearings last 50k-75k miles instead of 70k-100k under typical conditions).

Stock the cars run a little hot, but a good oil cooler and/or hood vents take car of that.

The fuel pickup and tank aren't great at the track. With sustained high g left handers you can get fuel starve under half a tank, there is a one way plastic flapper door that helps but doesn't completely fix the problem (I've never had fuel starve at ECR, but MRS-C I got it below half tank stock and below a quarter tank with the flapper valve). The flapper is like $80 and takes under an hour to install (properly sealing the tank is the hardest part, a new gasket might be the best way to do it for an extra like $10-$30).

The cars are very reliable on the track. I've done multiple back to back 20-30min sessions at ECR throughout even the summer without incident (I've even done a 45min session without any problems).

The SCCA is coming back for a Time Trial and Race School November 17&18, as soon as registration opens on Oct. 1st I'll be signing up for it, there will be at least 5 other twins there and I'd be more than willing to give you a ride (there is no PDX since the race school is sharing track time but I'm almost certain that I can still give rides as a certified instructor).

Since you're a member, once they open back up we can meet up at either an Open Track Day (I've instructed at nearly all of them so far) or during a member day. I'll give you a ride and maybe even let you take a few laps in my BRZ (I'll have to make sure you aren't too sketchy in person first).

2 flat in a NA twin is a tall order, but with the resurface, all the available power mods, and some R-comps it might be possible.

[Enkrow]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Thanks! So maybe 30 whp with intake and fatback?

I can always run race fuel at the track and get a bit more. If the car is capable of a 2:04 at ecrat full weight, I don't think I'll get bored with it. That is about what my c6 was on street tires. Miata is about 15 seconds slower. There are a lot of guys out here that run 2:02-2:08 times. I bet 2 flat is possible with good tires on a cold day with healthy weight reduction.

Is there any dreaded maintenance or repair that is just miserable? Any glaring weakspots?

Iirc the latest openflash tunes adapt up to 94 octane fuel. With higher octane, exhaust, and intake, you should be able to get close-ish to 30.

These cars tend to hold up pretty well on track.
All you really *need* is an oil cooler, pads, and brake fluid.
Like 14stu said, 13/14 have coilpack issues (supposedly fixed with the revised 652 part), and the verus flap will help with left hand fuel starvation.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

okay that's a good reference. I run 1:57!in my c7 on cup2 and 2:00 on r888r and 2:18 in the Miata. I'm a pretty good driver at ecr since I have a membership there. 2:06 is pretty fast for 200hp.

I've been looking for a c5 but that's more like $20k.

You'll be over 20k in a reliable track prepped twin with decent power....

[14stu]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

You'll be over 20k in a reliable track prepped twin with decent power....

You can do it cheaper, but the main cost for a track car is tires. Every set you'll save over $1000 with the twin over a Corvette. Which saves $3k-$5k a year in tires alone.

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[jubella2]

I feel like you could buy a lot of corvette consumables for the cost of a prepped FRS

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by 14stu

You can do it cheaper, but the main cost for a track car is tires. Every set you'll save over $1000 with the twin over a Corvette. Which saves $3k-$5k a year in tires alone.

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I was referencing a c5z as a track car.

You wouldn't be saving THAT much in tires once you consider the upgraded wheels / tires of a track prepped twin.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by jubella2

I feel like you could buy a lot of corvette consumables for the cost of a prepped FRS

I'll easily go through $15k in one year on the vette. Like I said, easily $400/hr run time. Hopefully the frs isn't a consumable, so I'll still have it after a season, whereas the tires are trash.

There's more to it than that though. The Vette is a monster and expensive one at that. It's a lot scarier to drive at the limit because it has so much more power, grip and price tag. 465hp doesn't sound like much because we're so numb to +600hp cars and electronic aids make it so easy to drive on the street. When you get on the track and are driving without aids, it's a lot. I love it, but it's not a good car for developing skill or driving 20x a year for my skill or budget.

It's "just" a grand sport" but it's a monster.

Freak in the sheets:


But a lady on the streets :

[Code Monkey]

We should trade.

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by 14stu

You can do it cheaper, but the main cost for a track car is tires. Every set you'll save over $1000 with the twin over a Corvette. Which saves $3k-$5k a year in tires alone.

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14stu speaks the truth! One of my buddies tracks his 17 grand sport regularly and while it is a BLAST to get that shove in the back when you punch it, you get another kick in the wallet every 3rd weekend when the tires are shredded.

A set of 17x9 maxxis rc1s for my BRZ are 40% of what a set of the grand sports tires cost. And I get 5-6 weekends out of them before they're just no longer grippy...

[14stu]

At the track, I'm going to use 3-4 sets of tires this year. I spent $600-$700 on each (including shipping, tax, and mounting and balancing). I'm going to end up doing 25 trackdays this year. All tires: $2500

I replaced my front rotors (they'd actually last longer than one year but I'd rather replace early than have issues) for $200 all in.

I'll end up using 4 sets of front pads at an average of $175 for a total of $700.

I only used 2 sets of rear pads for $160 each for a total of $320.

I flush brake fluid 2-4 times per year and change diff and tranny fluids once a year for a total of about $300 in fluids (not counting oil/gas).

All together I'm looking at $5k a year with my high number of events, that's an average of $200 per trackday or about $100/hr of track time. I'm actually at $20k in costs over my first 4 years of ownership, including all the parts, consumables, and even gas for track events (and all the autox I've done).

My projected total costs for 5 years is going to be right around $50k and that includes the initial purchase price of the car, all the parts, and all the consumables for both track and autox. The car will be worth $10-$12k with another $4k in parts (at fast selling prices). Total cost of ownership will come out to about $35k at that time (I don't plan on selling the BRZ then, but it's a nice round number).

I bought my BRZ brand new, so I'm paying more in depreciation but I got a good enough deal that it made more sense to have the peace of mind of a warranty and new, known car (the model was too new to have used options anyway).

The numbers are highly favorable for an 86 trackday car over consumables for a C7, a trackday C5, or even the consumables on a C6.

The only cheaper trackday car is going to be a Miata. An ND would be just a little slower and slightly more expensive upfront (consumables are a wash since tire sizes are the same, maybe a little cheaper with the ND but 10% or less is my estimate).

An S2k is another good option, but they are getting old, rare, and incurring a drift tax/price penalty.

The twins fit a full set of tires, consumables, and tools in the back. The other options require at least a tire trailer.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I was referencing a c5z as a track car.

You wouldn't be saving THAT much in tires once you consider the upgraded wheels / tires of a track prepped twin.

A prepped C5 is going to be, on the low end, $5k more than a prepped FRS and have twice the consumables. I'd probably pull the trigger on a clean $15k C5 prepped for track days if I could find one. Closest I've come is $18k 2000 miles away (so $20k all in). That's $10k above the FRS. At that price point, I'd spend more and either get a C6 (so I could swap wheels with my C7- they're almost identical sizes and offset) or go straight Spec Boxter and join all my friends.

Also, the FRS I'm looking at has a extra set of wheels and 2 extra sets of tires included.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Joesurf79

14stu speaks the truth! One of my buddies tracks his 17 grand sport regularly and while it is a BLAST to get that shove in the back when you punch it, you get another kick in the wallet every 3rd weekend when the tires are shredded.

A set of 17x9 maxxis rc1s for my BRZ are 40% of what a set of the grand sports tires cost. And I get 5-6 weekends out of them before they're just no longer grippy...

They don't even make them in GS sizes. Our only real options for track tires we can drive to the track on are Michelin Cup2 in OEM sizes (19F/20R) for $2k, which delaminate if you push them, or on 18" wheels, R888R for $1300 or so or NT01 for about $1500.
We can get Hoosiers (R7/A7) for about $1800 on 18s, too.

It's not easy finding a front tire at 285 (315 if you go aftermarket wheels) and 335-355 rear.

Originally Posted by 14stu

At the track, I'm going to use 3-4 sets of tires this year. I spent $600-$700 on each (including shipping, tax, and mounting and balancing). I'm going to end up doing 25 track days this year. All tires: $2500

I replaced my front rotors (they'd actually last longer than one year but I'd rather replace early than have issues) for $200 all in.

I'll end up using 4 sets of front pads at an average of $175 for a total of $700.

I only used 2 sets of rear pads for $160 each for a total of $320.

I flush brake fluid 2-4 times per year and change diff and tranny fluids once a year for a total of about $300 in fluids (not counting oil/gas).

All together I'm looking at $5k a year with my high number of events, that's an average of $200 per trackday or about $100/hr of track time. I'm actually at $20k in costs over my first 4 years of ownership, including all the parts, consumables, and even gas for track events (and all the autox I've done).

My projected total costs for 5 years is going to be right around $50k and that includes the initial purchase price of the car, all the parts, and all the consumables for both track and autox. The car will be worth $10-$12k with another $4k in parts (at fast selling prices). Total cost of ownership will come out to about $35k at that time (I don't plan on selling the BRZ then, but it's a nice round number).

I bought my BRZ brand new, so I'm paying more in depreciation but I got a good enough deal that it made more sense to have the peace of mind of a warranty and new, known car (the model was too new to have used options anyway).

The numbers are highly favorable for an 86 trackday car over consumables for a C7, a trackday C5, or even the consumables on a C6.

The only cheaper trackday car is going to be a Miata. An ND would be just a little slower and slightly more expensive upfront (consumables are a wash since tire sizes are the same, maybe a little cheaper with the ND but 10% or less is my estimate).

An S2k is another good option, but they are getting old, rare, and incurring a drift tax/price penalty.

The twins fit a full set of tires, consumables, and tools in the back. The other options require at least a tire trailer.

That bolded line says it all.

After 9 track days (one in the rain on street tires so really 8), I'm through 2 sets of tires ($1550 mounted each, low end), 4 oil changes ($75 DIY), 1 rear diff fluid swap ($150), one trans fluid swap ($200, didn't do it yet but need to), $1000 worth of pads, $1250 worth of rotor (one front pair and half a rear pair) and brake fluid ($300 total). That doesn't include costs I haven't incurred yet like shocks ($500 each for magnetic ride control ones), clutch, rebuilding brakes, coolant, plugs, etc. Fortunately, I have 7 years and 96,000 miles of warranty left so I don't have to worry about the $5000 electronic differential/locker thing.

Keep in mind, I typically run 3, at most 4, 30 min sessions. I don't do all 7 (because I'm spoiled and can go whenever I want for free/my monthly dues). Full track days would be crazy.


Anyway, my 8 track days totaled $6300. That's $787.50/day in consumables (actually, per 2/3 track day), or well over $400 PER HOUR of track time including fuel. (probably about $425 including fuel). I'll consume the entire FRS's purchase price in just 24 hours of run time.

Bottom line, After about 17-18 track days, I'll break even on the FRS purchase just on the difference in consumables. Plus I'll OWN a FRS. Let's not forget that I also drop my risk of loss from $60k to $10k if I total the car, I have a dedicated track car I can gut/add harness/rollbar/etc to without affecting my weekend car and I get to say I own four cars Also, upgrade costs like splitter, wing, coilovers and big brake kits (though, the GrandSport comes with aero, factory mag ride and 6 piston brembos and 2pc rotors) are substantially lower than those for a C7. $1500 for a decent coilover kit is a pipe dream in C7 world.

Adding 265hp and 1000lbs adds a LOT to consumables.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

A prepped C5 is going to be, on the low end, $5k more than a prepped FRS and have twice the consumables. I'd probably pull the trigger on a clean $15k C5 prepped for track days if I could find one. Closest I've come is $18k 2000 miles away (so $20k all in). That's $10k above the FRS. At that price point, I'd spend more and either get a C6 (so I could swap wheels with my C7- they're almost identical sizes and offset) or go straight Spec Boxter and join all my friends.

Also, the FRS I'm looking at has a extra set of wheels and 2 extra sets of tires included.

You have a track prepped 86 ready for purchase for 10k and you're not driving to get it right now?

My old c5z is selling for 18k and it has 55k on the clock. I mean deals are out there.... IMO it's a wash between a c5z as it comes and a track prepped twin in terms of consumables. C5z parts are cheap and they're reliable out of the box. What would you really need to upgrade on a c5z besides safety? Whereas to seriously track a twin with some reliable and decent hp you're dropping coin. Depends on how far you take hp and how much you're really modifying the car.