wide vs. narrow wheels/tires

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Excuse me. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't. That's the argument YOU made in the other thread when talking about performance. If you're telling me that the argument made in the other thread does not apply, please let us all know. If you don't agree that wider is better, then great -- we agree....

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

So do you think 245's are significantly wider?

I don't think they are, 255's getting there, 265's for stock power levels are a bit much. This is such an overblown argument. Like I said earlier, at most of our skill levels on this forum a 245 vs a 215 on the track is not going to make THAT much of a difference. Chill out and have a beer man.

Actually 30mm is a 14% increase in width. But you're right, it's not going to make a difference for most of us here. If it is not going to make a difference, then why do it? Why not keep it close to how it was designed and tested?

Unfortunately, I don't drink beer.......

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I just imagined that you yelled this at your computer screen without taking a breath and almost passed out. It made me laugh

Just took a breath..... It didn't help.....

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Actually 30mm is a 14% increase in width. But you're right, it's not going to make a difference for most of us here. If it is not going to make a difference, then why do it? Why not keep it close to how it was designed and tested?

Unfortunately, I don't drink beer.......

Just so you don't miss quote me like you did someone else I said, "not that much of a difference."

I do this for fun. I am not going to pull off good tires or sell my wheel/tire setup at a loss to potentially save a few tenths more.

The car is a street car designed around 215's, we are talking about it being modded and run on the track. Not really that comparable.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Just so you don't miss quote me like you did someone else I said, "not that much of a difference."

I do this for fun. I am not going to pull off good tires or sell my wheel/tire setup at a loss to potentially save a few tenths more.

The car is a street car designed around 215's, we are talking about it being modded and run on the track. Not really that comparable.

1. I did not misquote the other guy as he did say exactly that in another thread.

2. Totally agree on the rest of your statement.

3. I don't think we are talking here about a track car. If we are, it is a whole different matter which needs to include a bunch of other factors.

Perhaps I will take up beer drinking.....

[Cole]

Originally Posted by rvoll

I've read many of the posts on staggered setups. They work well in conjunction with suspension changed to make the car more neutral. I've also done this to several cars. But that is not the issue. So how wide would you go on the front? If you have 255's in back, would you really also put them in front?

Regarding TRD, they do recommend that the staggered setup for the 86 works. Of course, the use 7" rims on the front and 7.5" rims in back so they are talking about keeping the 215's on the front. I don't know what they tested in back.

So now you're talking about changing a bunch of suspension bits? I thought this was solely about tires. Not about making changes in conjunction with each other.

It's your car, do whatever you want with it. But my square 245 set up works very well for me.

[EAGLE5]

Another shit fest here. I so love you guys.

There are a fuck load of factors, no doubt. Temperature, surface, compound, wheel size, wheel width, tire size and width, engine power, track design, down force, and a bunch of others.

Throw all that shit away. Too fucking complicated for you morons. I'm trying to win friends here.

In general, wider tires allow for more lateral grip. Why? It's complicated. Friction is only part of it.
In general, assuming 200 hp, wider tires/wheels will go slower in a straight line.
If the course is all corners, and there isn't anything weird going on, like a tire that isn't getting hot enough to grip well, then a wider is good.
Faster track? Maybe a narrower tire allows for better acceleration.
There's generally a sweet spot. Trial and error.

None of this shit should matter to most of us. Most of us aren't racing. Those who are racing will do the testing/educated guessing/praying to my anus to figure out what works best at each track.

Canyon carving? Well, how often are you going WOT in the middle of a canyon? I'd just go for wider tires and a sticky street compound like the MPSS to have more grip in turns.
HPDE at stock-ish power? Who gives a fuck? OK, OK... I seem to remember Robispec and others saying a 17x8 or a 17x9 with 225s got about the fastest times usually.
Got a big motor and lots of power? Go wide, bitches. You're going to overheat your tires otherwise, especially with down force. Wait. Is this one lap or 50? That matters too.

So it's complex.

[switchlanez]

If the 215 tire GR car lapped Tsukuba faster than the 235 tire 14R60, it's counter-intuitive that TRD selected wider 265s for the Griffon 86 to set a Tsukuba record. Especially if all that friction from tire width + even more friction from Newtons of downforce slow down acceleration.

There are other non-tire differences between the GR and 14R60 that invalidate a straight comparison of tire width. Maybe if the 14R60 were equipped with 215s, it would lap slower. Likewise, maybe 265s work better collectively with the Griffon's specific mods so TRD eliminated 215s from selection.

X tire is the best. Caveat: Only on Y track with Z mods. Change any variable and it no longer holds true. Don't only scold people for not using 215s. You must also scold them for not having specifically 0 other mods and not driving on a specific road/track with specific angles and specific speeds and specific number of corners and specific length of straights and specific road texture and specific climate (205 is proven better!! ...in snow). If any of these change, you can't scold them. Only scold them for being outside a specific use case and non-stock configuration. Because users on an American forum site frequently race on Tsukuba and overwhelmingly leave everything stock on a platform built for and by tinkering car enthusiasts! (86 Chief Engineer and team flew to SoCal to define ideals for conception years before 2012 launch by speaking with Club4AG/car enthusiasts so they partially built it.) Like I said in the other thread, this is an academic argument over minutiae.

[Mr.ac]

Holy cow Batman! After 5 pages of reading and lols I had to watch the vid for the first time. Now I did and it just confirmed what I already knew.

Oh, just to get one major thing out of the way there are way, way, to many variables to even have an equal comparison.

The stinking Gonzo car was tuned, simi gutted, rollbar, and passenger seat removed, and had racing seats. Where as the TRD was just the TRD model.
Oh lest not forget driver height and weight. TRD driver was shorter and skinnier where as the Gonzo driver was taller and at lest 40lb heavier.

This was in no way a even remotely fair comparison to measure wide vs narrow tires.
For fucks sake where was tuned up, race prep. 86 on freaking 18x8 on 235's that pulled in the 2nd fasted time next to the SC 86. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

If the 215 tire GR car lapped Tsukuba faster than the 235 tire 14R60, it's counter-intuitive that TRD selected wider 265s for the Griffon 86 to set a Tsukuba record. Especially if all that friction from tire width + even more friction from Newtons of downforce slow down acceleration.

It is not counter-intuitive. The Griffon car had changed engine internals, more power, less than 1000kg weight. I would choose 265s on such a car all day.

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

For fucks sake where was tuned up, race prep. 86 on freaking 18x8 on 235's that pulled in the 2nd fasted time next to the SC 86. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

The one next to the SC 86 was -200kg (-440lbs) and had other engine modifications like a bigger throttle body, custom exhaust etc. However, this is another discussion. We were discussing here about stock or almost stock cars. Yes there are differences between the TRD 14R60 and Gazoo spec car. If you ask me which one is closer to stock, then I can tell you it is the Gazoo one.

[switchlanez]

^That's exactly the point of my entire post. I opened with a rhetorical challenge then attempted to rectify it with the rest of my post. You agree that non-tire mods can't be ignored. It's an obvious concept but you're doing exactly that in your OP.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Because the car was DESIGNED to run on 215's....

Yet, they come form the factory on 205/55R16. I'm just tossing shit out there. If they come on 205's 10mm shouldn't make much difference and you could lose a pound or two...

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by rvoll

. And by the way, TRD sells alloy wheels as an accessory to the 86 for a staggered setup. Are you saying that TRD didn't test it?

TRD also sells floor mats, keychains, cup holders, and plenty of other stuff made for looks only. They're selling a brand, not parts.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

I didn't. That's the argument YOU made in the other thread when talking about performance. If you're telling me that the argument made in the other thread does not apply, please let us all know. If you don't agree that wider is better, then great -- we agree....

Can you show us where I said wider is always better?