Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[CSG Mike]

@catcha @ZionsWrath beat me to it. That's normal VSA.


I'm not a "volunteer" or "trackday discount" coach, but generally speaking, I will start off EVERY student with all aids off. As the coach, if the student loses control, it's my fault. However, it's also my job to make sure they understand WHY they lost control, and how to prevent it from happening again in the future. Ideally, I can get my student to get close to the point of losing control, and feel the instability, without actually losing control. On a skidpad, I will intentionally have my students lose control, so that they can safely experience it, and practice recovering.

The only time I will leave aids on, is if the car has a system that is not so intrusive that it will hinder learning, or if the car is way, way too fast for the student.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Haha that reminds me -- a couple of years ago I went to a new track and requested an instructor to learn the lines. The instructor asked that I run with traction control on, which I had never done before but agreed to out of respect to him as a passenger riding in a stranger's car. But then he wouldn't sign me off for solo until I did some "clean" laps where the traction control light didn't flicker at all. OMG.

I could generally drive around the light, but I remember there was one particular off-camber exit with a few small bumps where the light would flash with seemingly no provocation. The whole test was actually a little dangerous because I was used to keeping my eyes up in case I needed to react to oversteer or incidents ahead, and this forced me to drive with my eyes down looking for that annoying TC light. I tried not to say anything and just did what he asked.

I don't know how common this is, but seems like a strange "test" for signing someone off. I also don't know how novices are supposed to learn throttle control or countersteer driving with traction control on. You could seemingly do anything and the car wouldn't let the rear end rotate.

Pedal dance, and then show them that the buttons don't work, and you're unable to turn the systems on (which is true).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Uplink

Generally, novices aren't learning that. They are learning to be aware of flagging stations, traffic and point-bys, the basic line and how to use the whole track, etiquette like pit in/out procedures, understanding how to be smooth on braking (while straight, not trail braking) and being easy on the inputs. All things that can be done without the system interfering.


The guys at the Boston Chapter BMW CCA put together an excellent evaluation form called SLIP (Skill Level Instruction Program) to help gauge in black and white (yes the chart is in color ) a student's level and properly review/analyze where they are and if they are progressing. Here's the old prototype chart to give you an idea: http://www.drivingevals.com/sites/dr...P%20sample.png


That sucks about your experience, I'm sorry. In the future if you run into the same problem, explain to the instructor how sensitive the system is and they may let you put it in sport mode for the first few laps or even after seeing you have a good handle on the car but that it keeps intervening. You could also opt to have him drive for a few laps to see if he experiences the same issue and will then understand the system better. You also always have the option of requesting another instructor. The CI will do their best to accommodate provided they have the staffing.

I really, really like that graphic.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

I wonder what an instructor at an event with the rule about traction control would say if I showed up in my GTI.

He'd probably say 'cool!' and ask you questions.

These rules are for guys showing up in 300, 400, 500 horsepower rwd cars for their first ever track day in their first sports car. Showing up in a low horsepower old car to flog at the track probably means you've got the right mindset about the whole thing and aren't trying to show off, go fast, and put people at risk.

Originally Posted by Uplink

Also, you actually can use them as tools to help the student learn. It's additional feedback that their inputs aren't smooth, they're not being consistent, they're overdriving the car or worse the car is driving for them. While working with a student you can make progress on consistency with tasks like, 'I want to see how many laps you can hit all your marks at speed without engaging the system.' Off is not always better it's just another tool.

100% agree, it's not some absurd handicap to leave the TC on or sport mode or 5s press on this car. Yes everyone interested in getting better should work towards gaining confidence and running the the brake dance, but the biggest key to a good track day imo is checking your ego at the door.

I like that SLIP chart you posted

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Pat

Was it a red B6 that was really pretty and nicely built? If so I think I know who you're talking about from my old AudiWorld days.

It was this one:


That car sounded like thunder when on throttle, and it was mostly a 4wheel drift out of slow corners (like the hairpin right in front of the pits where I was watching while waiting for my next session).

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Uplink

Generally, novices aren't learning that. They are learning to be aware of flagging stations, traffic and point-bys, the basic line and how to use the whole track, etiquette like pit in/out procedures, understanding how to be smooth on braking (while straight, not trail braking) and being easy on the inputs. All things that can be done without the system interfering.


The guys at the Boston Chapter BMW CCA put together an excellent evaluation form called SLIP (Skill Level Instruction Program) to help gauge in black and white (yes the chart is in color ) a student's level and properly review/analyze where they are and if they are progressing. Here's the old prototype chart to give you an idea: http://www.drivingevals.com/sites/dr...P%20sample.png


That sucks about your experience, I'm sorry. In the future if you run into the same problem, explain to the instructor how sensitive the system is and they may let you put it in sport mode for the first few laps or even after seeing you have a good handle on the car but that it keeps intervening. You could also opt to have him drive for a few laps to see if he experiences the same issue and will then understand the system better. You also always have the option of requesting another instructor. The CI will do their best to accommodate provided they have the staffing.

Oh no need to apologize, it certainly wasn't anything you had done! My guess is the instructor didn't realize how sensitive the system is in these cars, but I just tried to comply and he eventually figured it out and signed me off after a couple of sessions. Honest mistake, no harm done.

I've since progressed to non-instructed run groups, but I think experiences like that tend to have students trying to shed their instructors as quickly as possible, which is unfortunate. The longer novices stay with instructors, the more they can benefit from their experience and knowledge. But it can also be frustrating for the student if the instructor doesn't listen or trust the feedback the student is giving them (whether about something like the sensitivity of traction control, or even how they best process information, etc.)

It's a difficult job for instructors given the danger they put themselves in, but the best and most fun experiences I've had with instructors are the ones where communication has been a two-way street. I think ideally that's how it should be. I'm still friends with some of those old instructors, and we still have fun at the track swapping cars and doing ride-alongs and just laughing and having fun.

[ZionsWrath]

Kind of OT but anyone can recommend a brand of reusable gloves? Something I can touch moderately warm parts with.

I had tried the Mechanix brand from autozone but I wore through the thumb and forefinger. I think I wore through 3 pairs last year, total waste of money.

[GSpeed]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Kind of OT but anyone can recommend a brand of reusable gloves? Something I can touch moderately warm parts with.

I had tried the Mechanix brand from autozone but I wore through the thumb and forefinger. I think I wore through 3 pairs last year, total waste of money.

I use these. Very cheap. Last several months at a time.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Superior-S13BFNT-Dexterity-Glove-Thickness/dp/B00BHMCTY0?ie=UTF8&keywords=superior%20glove%20s13 bfnt&qid=1464378762&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2"]Superior S13BFNT Dexterity NT Nylon String Knit Glove with Foam Nitrile Coated Palm, Work, 13 Gauge Thickness, Size 11, Black (Pack of 1 Dozen): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific[/ame]

Jake

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Kind of OT but anyone can recommend a brand of reusable gloves? Something I can touch moderately warm parts with.

I had tried the Mechanix brand from autozone but I wore through the thumb and forefinger. I think I wore through 3 pairs last year, total waste of money.

Wait for Alpine Stars to do their annual sale

Or, cheap Snap-On gloves for around $15-20 a pair when they're on sale (sometimes a slow as 25/3 sets)

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

It was this one:


That car sounded like thunder when on throttle, and it was mostly a 4wheel drift out of slow corners (like the hairpin right in front of the pits where I was watching while waiting for my next session).

Ha! Yep, that's him.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by GSpeed

I use these. Very cheap. Last several months at a time.

Superior S13BFNT Dexterity NT Nylon String Knit Glove with Foam Nitrile Coated Palm, Work, 13 Gauge Thickness, Size 11, Black (Pack of 1 Dozen): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Jake

Ah these seem like the gloves they used to supply me when I worked at FedEx. I'll give these a shot thanks. But I use size 8 in latex sterile gloves. Do you know if the sizing is the same?

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I really, really like that graphic.

Thanks! I can't take credit for it, it's Dan, Matt and the crew from Boston. Really well thought out, right? Makes our job with student assessments and expectations really easy for both instructors and students alike.

[DocWalt]

Interesting, G-Loc uses the same color for their pads equivalent to Carbotech's... and the packaging is nearly identical. I knew they were essentially a spin-off of Carbotech, but it's pretty shameless, lol. Looking forward to not murdering these things in a weekend though

[ZionsWrath]

My Carbotechs have been orange, but yea they look identical