Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by SmsAlSuwaidi

wow some people tend to try to hard to impress others and prove things just to look better. i've never talked with Gem or anything but I've constantly read his posts and builds, and one thing i noticed is that he tries to justify how his Vortech kit/build is the best and how everybody should have it.

Hence the reason that @2forme and I say you have to read Gem's posts through a filter. He does have some good bits sprinkled around in there, but like a LOT of car guys i know can be a bit of a fanboi (myself not excluded).

[SmsAlSuwaidi]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian

Hence the reason that @2forme and I say you have to read Gem's posts through a filter. He does have some good bits sprinkled around in there, but like a LOT of car guys i know can be a bit of a fanboi (myself not excluded).

True he did jump on things, and find issues other people didn't find, but swore by the parts he loved. Yeah we all have that fan boy in us, its just defers on how much we tend to show it !


keep up the updates, I'm interested to the WMI system

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian

So that's why he was having boost issues on the dyno.

Well to my credit, my supplier was out of unicorns, so I had to use a goat with a party hat. I thought it would be good enough given the low amount of boost and how much cooler this SC runs in comparison to a turbo. Apparently it wasn't.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Well to my credit, my supplier was out of unicorns, so I had to use a goat with a party hat. I thought it would be good enough given the low amount of boost and how much cooler this SC runs in comparison to a turbo. Apparently it wasn't.

You didn't test your goat in desert conditions I bet.

That, or your goat's a damned clown!

[civicdrivr]

I had no idea goats were into Insane Clown Posse.

Sent from my Nexus 4

[2forme]

Dammit @Foobar, my supplier told me I had exclusive rights to that product!

[AZFA20]

Well here goes another review that I hope most will view as unbiased. I have no affiliation with any of the companies out there that make forced induction options for this platform nor am I partial to any particular one. I am a true enthusiast at the core and have respect for all the forced induction options out there because I believe each one brings unique pros/cons to the table. These should be weighed appropriately by the end user based on the primary function of the vehicles use. Some of you may have read other reviews that I have done of Gem's Vortech setup so this is essentially a continuation however, this time I drove Gems car back to back with @Supermassive 's P&L Turbo car. Huge thanks to these guys for letting me get behind the wheel of their toys to assist me in my personal pursuit of forced induction. Some quick background about my situation that I feel many 86/BRZ/FR-S owners are in the same boat:

"I know I want more power. To do so I want to obtain this power via forced induction, but with so many great options what route do I choose that will best fit my likings/purpose"?

Well....... it really boils down to preference for most but what if you love all methods of forced induction and you realize each form has its pros and cons (we will not go into pros/cons because I want to level the playing field between them without muddying the waters with bickering about technicalities) and what if your natural gravitation of choice says turbo all the way! These are all examples of my own internal battles to decide on a method of forced induction I want to pursue with this platform. I have said it before, that this is the single most difficult choice in forced induction for a car I have owned. I have all the capabilities to even pursue making my own turbo system and have many of times in the past on other vehicles. For some reason I have no real desire to build my own for this car………. yet. I want to get it right the first time on this one. I have meticulously observed all the options out there so far and I can honestly say I like em all in their own way. That's exactly what makes this so bloody hard. For whatever reason, I have always had this little attraction to the Vortech kit since I first saw it. I can't seem to kick it to the curb that is until the initial dynos started popping up. The cost per HP was just not where I wanted it. Since its reincarnation with the new compressor it became a real interest again for me. After initial dynos started coming out for the original out-of-the-box kits I thought Vortech was no longer an interest of mine to be perfectly honest. After some experience in Gem's car on the track in previous reviews the Vortech really impressed me but I was still not able to commit to it since I love turbos so much and know very well the potential they bring to the table. I have been tracking turbo cars out here in AZ for some time and they do have their pitfalls in our climate out here but I am not here to express our short period of extreme climate. We all know it’s the desert and deserts are hot hence it being a desert .

The only way I was going to figure this out was going to be to try em both. I am fortunate to have had access to two fantastic builds that allowed me to accomplish just that. To top things off they are very similar in power levels on average. My goal was to determine which of the two made me smile not because of shear power but through delivery. I want something that compliments the cars overall fun factor. I think a lot of owners feel this very same way. The “character” of the car. I know there are those that will say “well what exactly is the character of the car”? If you own the car or have ever driven it you know it’s not really like anything else you have driven so that is its character. It makes you smile period!

First car I took out was the turbo car. Please understand that these cars are not really apples to apples because there are some notable differences between them that for an unseasoned driver may skew the overall opinion of the comparison. For example tires, clutch, suspension, and for the love of god Gem please get a big brake kit on that car. The braking transition between my own car with Baers BBK to Supermassive's car with Willwood BBK was seemless and braking was proper for the power. Stock brakes on these cars are damn right scary after driving on the big boys for some time. Anyway, the road driven on was a nice and steady 3-4% incline so in favor of the turbo I expected it to spool a little faster with the extra load. I ran the cars up to 3-4k slowly and then WOT through to redline multiple times. Again a rather large difference between the two cars is the redline variation. The turbo car goes clear up to 9k and I wasn't use to that so it took a couple times before I got it up that high before shifting. I did somehow and regrettably miss a shift at one point in supermassive’s car. Not typical for me so I was a little embarrassed. The P&L kit moves no question about it and it pulls strong the whole time. Lag is there but it’s very minimal at those RPMs. It feels strong and as with any open dump wastegate system it’s loud as hell. Not in a bad way but just loud. The delivery was smooth and the car reached max TQ quickly as I expected it would and felt pretty well plateaued once reached as it scooted through the RPM. The power felt very consistent as it accelerated and what I mean by this is that it reached a sense of pull and then the pull remained steady without increase or decrease. In the upper RPM I sensed a falloff in power but very small with no concern because the shift comes rapidly thereafter. I think it is important for readers to understand that turbo choice has an enormous effect on how a vehicle makes power so please do not compare this to ALL kits out there because they are not all the same. It does however, give me a sense for how the turbo systems react with the chassis and overall “character” of the car. I then drove the car back on a decline where the results were pretty much equal in terms of spool and feel. The car was much faster than stock overall but by no means a rocket ship. The vehicle remained controllable and well mannered.

Next up was Gem’s car. I made an immediate transition to his car and off we went on the same route I had taken the first time around. Immediately the car is much quieter upon getting in but this is due to several factors and should not be a deciding factor. From the same RPM range of 3-4k I went WOT to redline. Again redline comes fast but here is where the differences between the two cars really stand apart from one another. The Vortech kit is utterly smooth as butter through the whole RPM range. I expected this but maybe not to the extent at which I experienced. Last time I was in Gem’s car it was on a road course so the car is basically in the upper RPM range for 95% of the time (Sweet spot for Vortech). I had gotten a feel for how smooth it was but not in a normal spirited driving situation. Coincidently this buttery smooth delivery was with a wastegated setup. The power comes on instantly and the pull continues to grow as you climb the RPMs in a linear manner. It pulls all the way to redline with a clear feeling of power increasing as it accelerates. It felt more powerful even though a dyno may show otherwise. Remember though I wanted to find a setup that made me smile so perception is everything in this particular review. The car really runs like a top. Super smooth! I would be lying if I said both cars didn’t make me smile but the Vortech made me smile a little more. Perhaps this was due to it performing better than I expected but I really felt as though the overall experience was simply better in the Vortech car. It felt like a bigger displacement engine where the power delivery mirrors the throttle exactly as it’s applied. As I shifted through the gears the tires broke free in the first several gears with a little rear end slip. The tires quickly grab and off it goes. Even though I was breaking the tires free rather easily with Gem’s car it was still very well mannered.

When I returned I actually felt bad that I liked the Vortech more . I didn't even want to say anything to supermassive because I love turbos so much and his kit looks beautiful under the hood. If I had told him I didn't like the Vortech more I would have been lying. The Vortech felt natural and the smile the car brings in a stock form is only widened by its added power. The car felt normal, just a lot faster. I was finally sold…………………

Any questions please do not hesitate to ask. In the end I wouldn't talk anyone out of any of the options out there. One thing I can say though is that the Vortech has impressed me time and time again and this is not something I would have expected. This kit fits the bill of a primary daily driver that wants to go out and weekend warrior it up on the track from time to time.

[Sonolin]

Great review, thank you @AZFA20

And I definitely know what you mean about this being your "hardest F/I choice ever". I've never owned a car before that I seriously considered F/I (my last was a ford escort...), but this car just has a lovely character stock and I don't want to ruin that. My main use for my car is a DD with weekend track/canyon driving (my DD is mostly city and canyon runs though, I don't commute).

I'm not even sure if I want to go F/I any more. The more I drive this car, the more I feel that this car has "enough" power stock, lol. It really does have "enough" (IMO), but all gearheads lust for more of course, and this car doesn't give that rush a lot of other faster cars do stock.

My main considerations right now are down to AVO, Vortech, and possibly Innovate. I really like AVO as its a little cheaper, more efficient (its a turbo...), and it spools up very fast and its seen a lot of track time. But the Superchargers impress me with every review about the smooth power delivery & linear power, which is definitely something I want to retain from the stock FR-S.

Such a hard choice. No wonder Toyota doesn't want this car F/I from the factory!

EDIT: I know its hard from your review, but which would you say (from your limited testing at least) would have the advantage at the track? (All "feeling" aside.) I'm sure the turbo gets the win here but just curious on your thoughts, and if the linear power delivery of the Vortech has any advantage over the raw torque of a turbo.

I think at higher power levels a supercharger is going to be "easier" to modulate than a turbo. Did you feel like the turbo gas pedal was a more on/off switch?

I think I need to drive a turbo & supercharged FR-S... If only there were anybody in my area. If so beer + meal is on me haha :happy0180:

[AZFA20]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

I know its hard from your review, but which would you say (from your limited testing at least) would have the advantage at the track? (All "feeling" aside.) I'm sure the turbo gets the win here but just curious on your thoughts, and if the linear power delivery of the Vortech has any advantage over the raw torque of a turbo.

I think at higher power levels a supercharger is going to be "easier" to modulate than a turbo. Did you feel like the turbo gas pedal was a more on/off switch?

You know this is a tough one without literally pitting them up to one another on a track and limiting them to equal power limits. What I can say is that having been on the track in Gem's car and observing from sidelines on different tracks of him driving his car, it is NO slouch on the track. He is quick out there for sure so the Vortech in my opinion is competitive on the track just as much as a turbo car. I was thoroughly impressed with the Vortech out on the track by all accounts. Turbos on a road course get cherry hot and I can attest to this on my other toys and this is something I have had to address with lots of radiant heat products to stop melting everything around the turbo so keep that in mind. The Vortech gets hot too without question but nothing like the turbos do obviously. The IATs of the two I personally have not been able to datalog on the Vortech but I imagine they are in range of turbo IATs on this car. Oil temp on the FA20 is cause for concern and a turbo on a road course dramatically increases sump temps so having a very good cooling solution is something of concern on the turbo applications too.

There are many things to consider when buying a product and AVO makes an awesome product I agree with you. Paul's customer service is outstanding and so is Vortechs. Customer service on a product I believe goes a long way. Nearly all vendors on here have gone above and beyond to address questions and concerns of mine even without having been a customer. To me that is something that wins me over. Maybe not on one product but I will for sure eventually buy something from them just because of customer service. Just because it is not a sale today it may be tomorrow. With that being said another aspect of Vortech that is appealing is their access to readily available parts for replacement should they be needed. Sure their may be some wait but its at least within the boarders of the U.S.

I think between the two kits you are considering which was pretty much exactly what I had narrowed it down to as well are both great choices. These two may come down to pure preference. I like them both because they blend in with the engine bay as if they were meant to be there. Take it for what it is worth but I decided Vortech.

[Sonolin]

Thanks! Nice reply and good to hear from somebody who's driven this car & been in one at the track.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by AZFA20

I think between the two kits you are considering which was pretty much exactly what I had narrowed it down to as well are both great choices. These two may come down to pure preference. I like them both because they blend in with the engine bay as if they were meant to be there. Take it for what it is worth but I decided Vortech.

Why the vortech over the AVO?
Have you tried the AVO?

[Captain Insano]

Great review AZFA20!! I think that is probably the most difficult decision for most folks on the forum as I read threads...

One question I did have for both you and Gem, for the Vortech kit you said it feels much like an NA car as far as power delivery. I was wondering and hoping if you have driven many other performance cars if there is one out there the power delivery of the Vortech kit on the BRZ/FRS reminds you of? I imagine my car with more power a lot and try to picture exactly how it would perform/accelerate - compared to what other types of cars.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Why the vortech over the AVO?
Have you tried the AVO?

Vortech S/C 3rd party review:

I drove a Vortech SC today huge thanks to good friend @Amalgamo. As many of you know, I am an AVO powered BRZ owner. I drove the stage 1 kit and can only compare it to my first drive of the AVO kit at 4 psi, then running 7 psi at one point, or FBM stage 1 kit at 8 psi which are the only other FI cars I've driven/ rode shotgun. I am going to be as impartial as possible.

The Vortech SC kit feels exactly like the car stock, but with no dip and the car feels pulling all the time. It is not neck breaking, you do not get a rush of power, its a power that increases throughout the RPM but at no point you feel a rush of power.

It is very different than the other two turbo kits I've driven or be a passenger of. The turbo kits put power immediately. You press the gas, they just GO. With the Vortech although it definitely pulls, and again this is compared with the TC kits, it still feels like its waiting a bit to go and it never GOES (I think this is expected again, because you never get an onset of power).

I think my best way to summarize it is, the Vortech kit feels exactly like the car should have come from factory, that subtle more power needed throughout the Rev band. The turbo kits feels like you did a good and noticeable upgrade in power over the stock car.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I drove a Vortech SC today huge thanks to good friend @Amalgamo. As many of you know, I am an AVO powered BRZ owner. I drove the stage 1 kit and can only compare it to my first drive of the AVO kit at 4 psi, then running 7 psi at one point, or FBM stage 1 kit at 8 psi which are the only other FI cars I've driven/ rode shotgun. I am going to be as impartial as possible.

The Vortech SC kit feels exactly like the car stock, but with no dip and the car feels pulling all the time. It is not neck breaking, you do not get a rush of power, its a power that increases throughout the RPM but at no point you feel a rush of power.

It is very different than the other two turbo kits I've driven or be a passenger of. The turbo kits put power immediately. You press the gas, they just GO. With the Vortech although it definitely pulls, and again this is compared with the TC kits, it still feels like its waiting a bit to go and it never GOES (I think this is expected again, because you never get an onset of power).

I think my best way to summarize it is, the Vortech kit feels exactly like the car should have come from factory, that subtle more power needed throughout the Rev band. The turbo kits feels like you did a good and noticeable upgrade in power over the stock car.

Yeah, the exhaust gases having to travel up as well as longer runners and without ceramic coating before getting to the turbo will never spool as fast as AVO's setup.

The reason I asked him that question was so people don't get the wrong idea about all turbo setups being the same, then use that as a generalised comparison for all centri SC vs Turbo.