2015 FR-S Start of Production - May 7, 2014

[shishand]

Originally Posted by TrackRider54

When I saw the BRZ/FRS in person and test drove it, I immediately knew the demographic the car was aimed at. Me!

I'm 42, wife, child not in a car seat, and already have a "family car". This car is so scary similar to a Datsun 260z or 280z, early RX-7, Toyota Celica Supra, etc. All great cars from the late 70's and early 80's when guys my age were kids reading car mags or just getting our license.

The difference is, the twins have more power than those cars and obliterate them from a performance perspective. Even the best tires back in the 70's and 80's were far worse than the stock tires that come on the BRZ/FRS. Remember the Ferrari 308 from Magnum PI? Yeah...you do if you're my age. We all slobbered over that car. It wore 205/70-14 tires and made a whopping 255hp from a V8 and went 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds which was considered extremely fast back then and truth be told, it still is. Just because a V6 Camry can go faster doesn't mean it's as much fun doing it. I'd rather have a car that feels fast, than one that is fast.

Subaru/Toyota knew exactly who they were designing the car for. They really have the only game in town for those of us who are looking for a time machine of sorts. Yeah, I could buy a Mustang GT or a C6 Corvette, but I've driven them and they just feel huge and ungainly. I can't afford the maintenance on a BMW or Porsche.

Enter the BRZ/FRS. Just what I'm looking for. Inexpensive (relatively), cheap to own, cheap to maintain, good fuel mileage, reliable. If you drive this car like a sane person I see no reason why it wouldn't reward you with 200,000 miles.

I disagree, the fact that they branded this car under "Scion" should say enough about its demographic: teens.
I like your examples very much though! Only thing i can say is they should add more options! Some are just fine with the current configuration on this car and its power output, however others prefer different things! For your example, you clearly state that in the past, 200hp was a lot, and that is why you feel 200hp is enough and not much of an overkill. However, for young adults, there isn't much of a past to look at and the standard power for us is set around ~200hp, thus making this vehicle "not the fastest." If they had more options to suit everyone, i think then it will be more successful that it is.
And i am in the same boat, i wanted something nice looking, affordable and low cost maintenance.

Different trims of the engine will solve this! My wish: a trim with a 2.5 displacement with a better engine compression ratio, making more turbo/tuner friendly and 250hp w/ 230trq.


I hope i didn't come off as rude, it wasn't my attention!

[Jegan_V]

Originally Posted by shishand

I disagree, the fact that they branded this car under "Scion" should say enough about its demographic: teens.

Scion's intentions however may not end up being the true result. The FRS and tC do generally have a lower age demographic however its possible the FRS will have a older demographic than the tC does. The FRS has a bit more of an old school sense about it. Its not concerned about power but rather the fundamentals of driving which is why some people long for a car from the past as a good deal of newer cars are losing this as they're starting to become mobile iPads. The FRS is one of those cars that sort of brings those qualities to the 21st century. Its one of those cars that doesn't necessarily disagree about the notion that "things aren't made like they used to". So I can totally understand why someone middle aged or even someone elderly might also like it. The car itself wasn't intended to target an age demographic, rather it was targeting car enthusiasts and that doesn't have any age restrictions. Giving the 86 to Scion was more of Toyota's way of ensuring Scion didn't disappear tomorrow because it provides a 20,000 boost in sales that Scion otherwise would've have had.

The other Scions however...they tend to attract older people. The pure pricing policy is very much loved by old people, the original xB in particular was more of a hit with older people than their intended demographic. The iQ is another car I only see(and have seen) an elderly driver liking it. The xD is discontinued so its no longer relevant.

[frsinpa]

Originally Posted by imag

I will pay $39K for a ts with a supercharger. I would also happily pay $36K for a ts without a supercharger, because I can do a supercharger myself. I just don't want to have to do wheels, brakes, suspension, chassis stiffening *and* add power. I also want the higher resale value that would come from a factory modded car versus a personally modded car. Aftermarket mods are basically worthless when it comes to the secondary market.

That said, I agree with those who say most people won't pay $35K+. I am sure Toyota/Subaru agree with you too - and that's why most of the models will still be standard power, lower cost versions. It just makes sense to have a higher performance version, either this year or next, for those of us who are less price constrained.

As far as substitutes:

A WRX STI is not equal to a BRZ STI, even at the same price. One is a sports car; the other is a sedan.

A Cayman is a two seater, and it will cost more to maintain than a BRZ/FRS. I am sure I am not the only one who would prefer a top-of-the line BRZ/FRS at <$40K to a poverty spec Cayman at $45K. I get on the Porsche configurator and I end up speccing a $80K Cayman S, which is more than I really need to spend on a car. Call it irrational, but that's just how my brain works. I also like that I *could* fit a third person in the BRZ/FRS, while I have no option in the Cayman.


tl;dr: I think a high performance BRZ/FRS fills a nice niche in the market, and I do not think I am alone in wanting one.

Agreed 100%.. at $80K, I would rather buy a GTR.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Jegan_V

Scion's intentions however may not end up being the true result. The FRS and tC do generally have a lower age demographic however its possible the FRS will have a older demographic than the tC does. The FRS has a bit more of an old school sense about it. Its not concerned about power but rather the fundamentals of driving which is why some people long for a car from the past as a good deal of newer cars are losing this as they're starting to become mobile iPads. The FRS is one of those cars that sort of brings those qualities to the 21st century. Its one of those cars that doesn't necessarily disagree about the notion that "things aren't made like they used to". So I can totally understand why someone middle aged or even someone elderly might also like it. The car itself wasn't intended to target an age demographic, rather it was targeting car enthusiasts and that doesn't have any age restrictions. Giving the 86 to Scion was more of Toyota's way of ensuring Scion didn't disappear tomorrow because it provides a 20,000 boost in sales that Scion otherwise would've have had.

The other Scions however...they tend to attract older people. The pure pricing policy is very much loved by old people, the original xB in particular was more of a hit with older people than their intended demographic. The iQ is another car I only see(and have seen) an elderly driver liking it. The xD is discontinued so its no longer relevant.

Lots of older Scion drivers around here, they have almost a Lexus appeal as being higher classed than the budget Toyota's.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Wandr3r
I got a chance to speak with Ted Lalka, the VP of Marketing for Subaru Canada at the Employee demo for the 15' STI in Vancouver last month. I asked if we will see more power from this platform for 2015/16. He said there are no plans for a factory turbo or super charger from Subaru within the current cycle.

Interesting what he did not say here - "no plans for turbo/supercharger" does not mean the same as "no power boost".

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Interesting what he did not say here - "no plans for turbo/supercharger" does not mean the same as "no power boost".

Grasping at straws?

If they can tune and get 10-15 more HP while maintaining their mileage and emissions parameters then we may see that. Anything else, which includes displacement bumps, another engine or FI requires complete re-certification of that model. With this being a fairly low volume, low price, niche vehicle I cannot see Toyota or Subaru making that kind of investment any time soon or maybe ever. Toyota does not historically add power bumps to its sports cars unless a totally new generation is introduced.

[botbs]

Originally Posted by Wandr3r

Pretty much... For those of you that have already ordered the 15' do not worry, its not a turbo. Subaru will not up the power for these. Since I enjoy my job, can't say much but I will post details when I can.

I guess it will be like this at the Vancouver car show 2014.



So disappointed if that's the case.

[imag]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Interesting what he did not say here - "no plans for turbo/supercharger" does not mean the same as "no power boost".

He also didn't say Toyota wouldn't do it

Seriously though, I think any power boost would come from tuning or displacement increase. That doesn't mean I think it's coming this year.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Toyota does not historically add power bumps to its sports cars unless a totally new generation is introduced.

Celica GT and GTS always seemed like the model the 86 would take to me.

[yo joshman]

Originally Posted by imag

He also didn't say Toyota wouldn't do it

Seriously though, I think any power boost would come from tuning or displacement increase. That doesn't mean I think it's coming this year.

I agree with this statement. The "lack of power" public notion goin around will probably be dealt with by going with the pre existing 2.5 boxer engine with slight modifications. In my opinion that would cost the company the least amount of money to address the problem. Slapping on a turbo or supercharger would be too costly considering internal engine components must be strenghtened/has to meet strict emssion standards etc. Toyota can make a faster frs no problem...but try to make one on the cheap with stiff regulations ?? Thats a tall order. In the end the whole point of this car was to be like the original ae86 cheap/fun/reliable. In that sense i feel like the company did just that. I really dont see the problem some ppl have with this car...u need more power go add some...?

[Jegan_V]

Originally Posted by yo joshman

I agree with this statement. The "lack of power" public notion goin around will probably be dealt with by going with the pre existing 2.5 boxer engine with slight modifications. In my opinion that would cost the company the least amount of money to address the problem. Slapping on a turbo or supercharger would be too costly considering internal engine components must be strenghtened/has to meet strict emssion standards etc. Toyota can make a faster frs no problem...but try to make one on the cheap with stiff regulations ?? Thats a tall order. In the end the whole point of this car was to be like the original ae86 cheap/fun/reliable. In that sense i feel like the company did just that. I really dont see the problem some ppl have with this car...u need more power go add some...?

Actually of those options, the turbo will be the one that's easiest to pass emissions regulations of the three. A larger displacement engine is better of the three on the fuel economy side(CAFE). The supercharger is the one that will get shafted because it does neither of those well. The issue with going turbo though...making sure it doesn't cause issues for the warranty department. Its the big reason why many would like to see a factory turbo rather than going aftermarket, having that powertrain warranty there is very reassuring. If there is going to be a big engine change, I do think its likely going to come in the form of a 2.5L, as this would be ideal to increase this car's power while at the same time for Subaru makes it easier to finally replace the EJ25 in their whole lineup including the WRX STi.

[Sleeperz]

I disagree that the target market is teens, when most buyers are not teens since mosty could not afford a new car anyways.

It is a Scion because it does not have the reliablity of a Toyota.
It is a new platform more or less with a new engine with no history. Consumer Reports rates it low in reliability. Maybe next year it will be improved after working out the bugs.

Originally Posted by shishand

I disagree, the fact that they branded this car under "Scion" should say enough about its demographic: teens.

And i am in the same boat, i wanted something nice looking, affordable and low cost maintenance.

Different trims of the engine will solve this! My wish: a trim with a 2.5 displacement with a better engine compression ratio, making more turbo/tuner friendly and 250hp w/ 230trq.


I hope i didn't come off as rude, it wasn't my attention!

[yo joshman]

Originally Posted by Jegan_V

Actually of those options, the turbo will be the one that's easiest to pass emissions regulations of the three. A larger displacement engine is better of the three on the fuel economy side(CAFE). The supercharger is the one that will get shafted because it does neither of those well. The issue with going turbo though...making sure it doesn't cause issues for the warranty department. Its the big reason why many would like to see a factory turbo rather than going aftermarket, having that powertrain warranty there is very reassuring. If there is going to be a big engine change, I do think its likely going to come in the form of a 2.5L, as this would be ideal to increase this car's power while at the same time for Subaru makes it easier to finally replace the EJ25 in their whole lineup including the WRX STi.

Im with you with the whole 2.5l engine upgrade but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Jegan_V

Actually of those options, the turbo will be the one that's easiest to pass emissions regulations of the three. A larger displacement engine is better of the three on the fuel economy side(CAFE). The supercharger is the one that will get shafted because it does neither of those well. The issue with going turbo though...making sure it doesn't cause issues for the warranty department. Its the big reason why many would like to see a factory turbo rather than going aftermarket, having that powertrain warranty there is very reassuring. If there is going to be a big engine change, I do think its likely going to come in the form of a 2.5L, as this would be ideal to increase this car's power while at the same time for Subaru makes it easier to finally replace the EJ25 in their whole lineup including the WRX STi.

The FR-S is insignificant to Toyota's CAFE numbers. 20k sales pales compared to the 400k Camry, 300k Corolla, 200k Prius, etc. they could do a 28mpg version and the number would be virtually unaffected.

Subaru, on the other hand, might have some problems with a low mpg version. That didn't prevent them from releasing a 23mpg '15 STI with an old engine, though.