Performance automatics

[madfast]

PLEASE dont turn this into a Auto vs Manual pissing contest. If you have nothing constructive to add just walk away...

Ok so we all know the FT is coming out with a 6 speed paddle shifted automatic. my fear of course is 1.) the auto will be crappy and 2.) cars with the auto will be stripped of features/options.

1.) there are a few autos out there that give me great hope that the FT can and will be sporty. in the toyota stable, the IS-F uses the Aisin AA80E. in manual mode it has full lock up in gears 2 to 8, 0.1 sec shifts, rev matched downshifts, and absolutely NO auto shifts at redline.

the 370Z also has a great 7 speed auto. in manual mode you get partial to full lock up in gears 2 to 7, 0.5 sec shifts, rev matched downshifts, and also no auto shifts at redline...

what other automatics are out there that has these sporty features?

Lotus totally reworked the camry auto in their Evora IPS, and its definitely sporty. the AMG MCT autos replace the torque converter with a wet clutch, and so is very sporty.

2.) automatics have been dealt a bad hand from the beginning. for example the miata auto cannot be had with a LSD. likewise the mustang auto cannot be had with the "track pack" option. the FT has been confirmed to have a LSD, but will they make it manual only? that would totally suck, and again the auto gets the shaft...

so if toyota/subaru is reading this please, please, please do NOT water down the automatic in the FT. it CAN be sporty and fun, but only if you make it that way! dont leave those who choose the auto in the dust...

[Dave-ROR]

If Toyota/Subaru is reading this, don't even sell it with an automatic, maybe a DSG since that's the in-thing, but no automatic.

That was constructive IMO

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

PLEASE dont turn this into a Auto vs Manual pissing contest. If you have nothing constructive to add just walk away...

Ok so we all know the FT is coming out with a 6 speed paddle shifted automatic. my fear of course is 1.) the auto will be crappy and 2.) cars with the auto will be stripped of features/options.

1.) there are a few autos out there that give me great hope that the FT can and will be sporty. in the toyota stable, the IS-F uses the Aisin AA80E. in manual mode it has full lock up in gears 2 to 8, 0.1 sec shifts, rev matched downshifts, and absolutely NO auto shifts at redline.

the 370Z also has a great 7 speed auto. in manual mode you get partial to full lock up in gears 2 to 7, 0.5 sec shifts, rev matched downshifts, and also no auto shifts at redline...

what other automatics are out there that has these sporty features?

Lotus totally reworked the camry auto in their Evora IPS, and its definitely sporty. the AMG MCT autos replace the torque converter with a wet clutch, and so is very sporty.

2.) automatics have been dealt a bad hand from the beginning. for example the miata auto cannot be had with a LSD. likewise the mustang auto cannot be had with the "track pack" option. the FT has been confirmed to have a LSD, but will they make it manual only? that would totally suck, and again the auto gets the shaft...

so if toyota/subaru is reading this please, please, please do NOT water down the automatic in the FT. it CAN be sporty and fun, but only if you make it that way! dont leave those who choose the auto in the dust...

I don't think you should worry. Like you pointed out they make the IS-F in auto-only (and a torque-converter auto at that) and it is a valid performance vehicle.

And as a Scion, I don't think it will have track packs and such, that are equipment related. Probably just the one vehicle with the main options being only the transmission, colour and leather. The LSD should be standard. Worst case is it will be an option, but you can check it off on either tranny.

Everything else will be dealer options that you check off. But just be careful of these, as they are quite over-priced when compared to same or better quality real aftermarket.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by madfast

PLEASE dont turn this into a Auto vs Manual pissing contest. If you have nothing constructive to add just walk away...

My guess is 3 pages in and this will happen.

Originally Posted by madfast

Ok so we all know the FT is coming out with a 6 speed paddle shifted automatic. my fear of course is 1.) the auto will be crappy and 2.) cars with the auto will be stripped of features/options.

so if toyota/subaru is reading this please, please, please do NOT water down the automatic in the FT. it CAN be sporty and fun, but only if you make it that way! dont leave those who choose the auto in the dust...

1. I would assume to keep the costs down this would be the case aka torque converter with sequential shift mode. I highly doubt something as sophisticated as say a AMG MCT, IS-F, or IPS is going in. If that was the case then I would expect pay an extra 15-20% for an automatic FR-S or something stupidly ridiculous over the cost of the stripper manual model.

2. As to the LSD being left out, I don't have a comment because I have no idea of the game plan on this being standard or option.

Construction added and walking far far away from topic.

[Fly Guy]

I'm also hoping it would perform like the IS-F.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by madfast

so if toyota/subaru is reading this please, please, please do NOT water down the automatic in the FT. it CAN be sporty and fun, but only if you make it that way! dont leave those who choose the auto in the dust...

Would you buy this awesome-automatic-tranny-model if it raised the price of the car to $30,000?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Would you buy this awesome-automatic-tranny-model if it raised the price of the car to $30,000?

cmon that's unrealistic... but for me it's going to be auto all the way. im past that part of my life where i just have to have a manual. nowadays, even the crappiest autos still perform ok. what i hope is that this auto is not just better than mediocre, but outright sporty...like the IS-F.

reading up on the IS-F tranny, it gives me hope that toyota would do something similar with this car. they dont have to go that far, but as long as they make an effort to make it sportier than the average auto i'd be happy. and its easy too. painfully so. the only thing is that they would have to trade off smoothness for more feel. and scion being a youth brand? maybe its possible...

[madfast]

Toyota info on the IS-F automatic:

Conquering a Stereotype
Conventional wisdom has long held that a good manual transmission is always faster and more fun than an automatic transmission: Faster because it directly transfers power without the typical power loss of a torque converter, and more fun because it responds exactly to the driver’s commands with no delay.

Fast, direct, fully controllable and predictable – exactly the desired qualities in any “driver’s car.” Moreover, precisely the qualities that describe the new Lexus IS F’s 8-Speed Sport Direct Shift transmission. The transmission is an arrow through the heart of conventional wisdom.

But why go to the trouble of creating an automatic transmission that performs better and faster than a manual? After all, the simple yet effective manual transmission is held in high esteem by driving enthusiasts everywhere.

Engineers love a challenge and when the IS F Chief Engineer dared his staff to build a paradigm-changing high-performance car, the conventional automatic transmission was a ripe target. Why? The IS F would not meet their lofty goals with anything less than a complete re-think of the gearbox. Goals that included scintillating track performance.

You may not care much about the detail and might feel that driving is the only proof you need. If so, you’re encouraged to get some IS F seat time at your earliest opportunity. But if you would like to know how Lexus built the world’s fastest shifting automatic transmission, read on.

Moving from Weakness to Strength
In the process of creating a maximum performance car, Lexus has done nothing less than turn what is typically thought to be a weakness into a solid advantage. To illustrate the point, let’s get right to the qualities that make it so:

• The worlds fastest shift time for street legal production cars. At 0.1 second, it’s faster than you.
• Full manual shift control that can be instantly accessed by moving the console-mounted shift lever to “M” and then using either the steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters or the shift lever. In manual mode, it shifts only when you tell it to.
• A direct feel unrivaled by conventional automatics, made possible via clutch lockup (yes, like a manual) employed in second through eighth gears
• Ultra-quick throttle blipping downshifts match engine and gear speed to avoid sudden engine braking—an advantage during performance driving, on the track or on the road
• First gear torque multiplication for maximum off-the-line acceleration
• Smooth, yet quick and drama free automatic shifting, if that is what you desire

These qualities add up to create a track-worthy ultra-high performance transmission that works for you, not against you, by responding to your demands the moment you want or need it to. And unlike other transmissions built for high performance duty, there is no pain required for your gain.

Speed is Essential
The most important quality in the development of the new gearbox was shift speed. Incredibly, the team looked at the world’s fastest shifting transmissions for reference and inspiration: Formula One. A typical F1 transmission shift time is approx. 0.05 seconds, with virtually imperceptible lag. The IS F shifts occur in approximately 1/10th of a second. The charts below put the remarkable shift speed of the IS F’s transmission in perspective.

Upshift Downshift
Begin with a Robust Design…
The transmission team started with a new 8-speed automatic transmission design from the LS 460. This may sound like physical overkill but IS F would have notably more power than the LS and certainly be driven more aggressively, so a robust design was required.

The cleverly designed gearbox is relatively light and uses a special planetary gear set that allows a more compact design. The whole unit weighs only 96.3 kg yet has more than enough torque capacity for the IS F’s 5.0-liter engine.

…and Relentlessly Pursue Efficiency
The team that designed and developed the transmission knew that they had to think without boundaries to achieve the type of performance on both road and track that skilled drivers demand. The surprising results are rooted in two key areas: Shift/lockup clutch operation and shift control. It also doesn’t hurt to have eight speeds in the g‘box. The so-called lockup clutch is not new to automatic transmissions, but the control strategy is. Traditional automatics have used the lockup clutch to make them more efficient by creating a direct power path between the engine and transmission. This is normally done in the upper gears and in low load operations to preserve smoothness while gaining fuel economy.

The IS F turns this idea on its head by employing lockup in all gears except first when in manual mode. This eliminates any power loss from torque converter from 2nd through 8th gear while preserving desirable torque multiplication in first gear for stunning launch acceleration. The result is a direct feel unlike any other automatic, and right now response to the throttle.

This lockup scenario surely creates excessive shift shock, you say? The intentional result is much more in the “useful feedback” category than shock. And remember we’re still in manual mode; Shifts are quite smooth and quick in auto mode but manual is so addicting, you may never look back.

Add Strategic Control…
In order to create the virtually instant upshifts (in manual mode), Lexus engineers developed new methods to control the hydraulic pressure that actuates the transmission clutches. A high flow-rate linear solenoid is one of the key elements that work together with special computer programming to provide quick and precise control in concert with engine torque. Ultra quick shifts—when you want them—are the outcome.

The ability of the transmission to respond only to your commands yields a manual mode that is true to its name. It shifts only when you ask it to, and not when it thinks it should.

In addition, a modified manual mode is readily accessible without even touching the shift lever. When driving in “D,” one only needs to tap the downshift paddle once to move into the modified manual mode. In this mode, one can shift manually as desired; the system returns to automatic when the vehicle is stopped or driven at a constant speed for a time.

…and Performance without Pain is Assured
The IS F SPort Direct Shift transmission manages to be both an amazingly effective manual and a refined automatic. One stereotype…conquered.


So all the engineering is already done. They would just have to apply it to the new tranny. the FT auto is supposedly made by Aisin also so its very doable. so toyota, just do it!

[Allch Chcar]

I wouldn't count on getting a dual clutch. Remember it has to bolt up to the EJ/FB bolt pattern. And the torque converter based automatics are cheaper, (I believe).

The engine is going to be low on torque(as far as sports cars go) so it has to handle revving to be competitive and use dry clutches instead of wet. I haven't heard any good things about the Mazda sports cars that use the Aisin automatics if that means anything.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by madfast

cmon that's unrealistic...

Is it really?

Assuming the FT-86 comes out at $22,000 and the IS-F transmission is $8,000...

http://www.villagelexusparts.com/pro...500053130.html

True, aftermarket OEM parts often cost more than they did inside the car originally. But even then, how about $27,000?

[Neutral_Eyes]

I'd be down to at least try the automatic if it were like the IS-F's. Bottom line though, I don't think there's enough buffer room in the price range to allow for that. Dual clutch is nice too, but with a car like this I think I'd rather keep it simple.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Is it really?

Assuming the FT-86 comes out at $22,000 and the IS-F transmission is $8,000...

http://www.villagelexusparts.com/pro...500053130.html

True, aftermarket OEM parts often cost more than they did inside the car originally. But even then, how about $27,000?

no, im not saying to use the IS-F's 8 speed. im saying to apply similar principles, used in the IS-F, to the FT tranny. for example, i want rev matched downshifts. few automatics have rev matched downshifts.and how hard would it be to do? super easy as its all software. they just have to have the mindset to do it.

quick shifts? again, easily done. but you will have shift shock. so the question becomes, will toyota have the balls to sell a car with super quick shifts but a lot of shift shock? for IS-F money, yeah you wanna feel it. but for FR-S kinda money? will the regular guy care and instead say its not smooth enough?

and back to cost. lets just say the auto is a $2k auto option, but it also includes features seen on the IS-F. for me personally, i'd get it and be very happy. happy that toyota had the balls to make a great auto in such a low cost sports coupe. for me it'd be worth the money. for others maybe not, and that may be a reason why they wont go that route...

but realistically, its all about the programming. most of these sporty features can be done or at least approximated with simple software changes, nothing inherently expensive. the willingness to trade off smooth shifts for quick ones, etc. is what i want to see...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I haven't heard any good things about the Mazda sports cars that use the Aisin automatics if that means anything.

are you referring to the lower redline in the auto miata and rx-8? people have removed the limiter so its not like the torque converter literally explodes above 7k rpm or something like that. auto RX-8's have gone 9000 rpm. the auto doesnt like it very much, but if you rev lower to about 8500 rpm, it's perfectly fine... longevity? i dunno. but having an upgraded TC stock so it can handle revs reliably is not something new. they could easily do it if they really wanted. but something tells me most companies wouldnt due to costs.

but my hope has always been that toyota can and will take that extra step...

[RRnold]

Originally Posted by madfast

PLEASE dont turn this into a Auto vs Manual pissing contest. If you have nothing constructive to add just walk away...

Ok so we all know the FT is coming out with a 6 speed paddle shifted automatic. my fear of course is 1.) the auto will be crappy and 2.) cars with the auto will be stripped of features/options.

1.) there are a few autos out there that give me great hope that the FT can and will be sporty. in the toyota stable, the IS-F uses the Aisin AA80E. in manual mode it has full lock up in gears 2 to 8, 0.1 sec shifts, rev matched downshifts, and absolutely NO auto shifts at redline.

To be more realistic since the FT's AT transmission probably won't be similar to an IS-F. However, it might be more similar to an Aisin A960E (IS-250) or even from the A650E (IS300). My g/f has an IS250 and the paddle shifting feels sporty and precise. I did feel a bit notchy when downshifting in the lower gears but that is probably since you're not modulating between the clutch and gas.