follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-16-2016, 10:16 AM   #1
max20s14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Drives: 14' Raven M/T - 02' is300
Location: alabama
Posts: 161
Thanks: 45
Thanked 28 Times in 21 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Tomei UEL vs HKS/Tomei EL headers for gains

Looking at headers between 500-700 the HKS seems to be available for ~650 some places which is the one I am leaning towards.


Im a big fan of Tomei products. It seems they have 2 headers UEL and EL I understand the UEL will give the car the distinct boxer engine sound which I don't care for either way.


I have seen drift office's dyno's of the Gruppe-s(same as Tomei UEL) and their dyno of the HKS header. The results looked similar to me but I am no expert.


for reference:


Gruppe-s(Tomei UEL):
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92104


HKS:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41525


It seems the primary complaint about the HKS header is the price. Which seems to have come down to the same as the Tomei.


Which would one suspect to give the most power under the curve between the three(HKS, Tomei UEL/EL)?


Will be going with OFT stage 2 at the same time.






EDIT 1:


Adding related links:
I thought I would add more related information:


Perrins findings:
http://blog.perrinperformance.com/br...n-and-proving/


Vittuned:
http://blog.vittuned.com/just-a-coup...-vs-tomei-uel/


Post #31 Jonsey's Tomei EL dyno sheet:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=113829&page=3


Post #37 username404's Tomei UEL dyno sheet:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=113829&page=3


EDIT 2:


Changed the title to reflect the info gathering.




Keep it up!

Last edited by max20s14; 12-23-2016 at 02:12 PM.
max20s14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2016, 10:50 AM   #2
empower-auto
Kouki-Monster
 
empower-auto's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 11
Thanked 562 Times in 261 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
the difference is moreso in quality --- the Tomei is better material and finish than the old HKS.

HKS has 2 new versions out now that come as complete systems with over-pipe and mid-pipe as well

Very similar to Apexi.

If you don't want the full system go for the Tomei -- it's top quality. I run it with the matching over-pipe on my supercharged 86
__________________
Rich Anderson
EMPOWER AUTO
empower-auto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2016, 01:30 PM   #3
max20s14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Drives: 14' Raven M/T - 02' is300
Location: alabama
Posts: 161
Thanks: 45
Thanked 28 Times in 21 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by empower-auto View Post
the difference is moreso in quality --- the Tomei is better material and finish than the old HKS.

HKS has 2 new versions out now that come as complete systems with over-pipe and mid-pipe as well

Very similar to Apexi.

If you don't want the full system go for the Tomei -- it's top quality. I run it with the matching over-pipe on my supercharged 86


I assume you are referring to the UEL Tomei? Do you believe it will give more power than the EL version overall?
max20s14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2016, 03:54 PM   #4
Jonsey
Senior Member
 
Jonsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: DFW
Posts: 272
Thanks: 369
Thanked 216 Times in 112 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Reach out to the guys at moto-east or someone else who dynos a lot of cars and see a lot of headers. I bet they will point you to Tomei. I was more than happy with the numbers from my car on a Tomei EL with a good tune.
__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." Mark Twain
Jonsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2016, 06:46 PM   #5
empower-auto
Kouki-Monster
 
empower-auto's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 11
Thanked 562 Times in 261 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by max20s14 View Post
I assume you are referring to the UEL Tomei? Do you believe it will give more power than the EL version overall?
I'm using the EL version and that is what I recommend unless you want that terrible boxer rumble fart.

EL tends to make the most peak power also -- although it's not a ton.
__________________
Rich Anderson
EMPOWER AUTO
empower-auto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 07:22 AM   #6
troek
Senior Member
 
troek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: 2012 Toyota 86
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,294
Thanks: 333
Thanked 396 Times in 285 Posts
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by empower-auto View Post
the difference is moreso in quality --- the Tomei is better material and finish than the old HKS.

HKS has 2 new versions out now that come as complete systems with over-pipe and mid-pipe as well

Very similar to Apexi.

If you don't want the full system go for the Tomei -- it's top quality. I run it with the matching over-pipe on my supercharged 86
HKS is making an overpipe now? Its not on either of their sites.
troek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 11:10 AM   #7
Evil Rocky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Drives: FRS
Location: Chiraq
Posts: 299
Thanks: 74
Thanked 54 Times in 50 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I went with EL and besides boxer rumble I would say that a big difference is either want power low end or high. I plan on doing mostly tracking events and run higher rpms and reason I chose that.
Evil Rocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 02:01 PM   #8
bfrank1972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S Argento
Location: Westport,CT
Posts: 1,855
Thanks: 517
Thanked 1,039 Times in 616 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
FYI various other very good EL headers out there on the market besides Tomei - I have a P&L 4-1 long tube header that gives a really nice low end (long tube design) combined with a great top end too (the one I have is even catted). Extremely happy with it - thick walls, nice welds, clean collector, sounds amazing. I think there's a used one FS in the classifieds here. JDL & PTuning are a couple others.
bfrank1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 03:15 PM   #9
Decay107
Turning is for Nerds
 
Decay107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Drives: 35 characters is not enough
Location: PDX
Posts: 1,974
Thanks: 836
Thanked 1,259 Times in 717 Posts
Mentioned: 186 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
I'm also not a fan of the boxer rumble, but I'm running the Tomei UEL because it makes just as much (or more) power as any EL on the market and doesn't have a torque dip. It bothers me that the typically more efficient EL headers under-perform on this platform, but that's just the way it is for the FA20.

Tomei really knocked it out of the park with their uel. Only EL that matches it is ACE.

Last edited by Decay107; 12-17-2016 at 09:55 PM.
Decay107 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Decay107 For This Useful Post:
SuperTom (06-27-2018)
Old 12-17-2016, 07:23 PM   #10
solidONE
Senior Member
 
solidONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 1,808
Thanked 790 Times in 611 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I can vouch for Tomei's quality and completeness of the kit. Anti-seize, gaskets, heat shielding all included with kit. While the anti-seize and heat shielding doesn't add much to their costs, it goes to show Tomei's attention to detail. Not quite sure if gruppe-s includes the same even if the header is nearly identical.

As far as performance go, I'd say it's satisfactory having gone with the Tomei EL previously. The idea of having the exhaust pulse and resulting uneven left to right bank wear bothers me. lol I'd say the output is very similar to the HKS EL with the shape of the torque curve following that of a tuned stock header setup. The UEL does a better job leveling the torque dip, if that's is your main concern. Since you're using OFT to tune, the OFH probably should be a consideration as well as they offer package deals with a discount. The output is similar, though IIRC the runners are constructed of slightly larger diameter piping allowing for a slightly better increase at the top end.
__________________
Intent > Content

cowardice is the mother of cruelty.
solidONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 08:23 PM   #11
Dr. BRZ
Senior Member
 
Dr. BRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: 2013 WR Blue Pearl BRZ Limited 6MT.
Location: Oklahoma City, OK.
Posts: 756
Thanks: 44
Thanked 217 Times in 149 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decay107 View Post
I'm also not a fan of the boxer rumble, but I'm running the Tomei UEL because it makes just as much (or more) power as any EL on the market and doesn't have a torque dip. It bothers me that the typiclly more efficient EL headers underperform on this platform, but that's just the way it is for the FA20.

Tomei really knocked it out of the park with their uel. Only EL that matches it is ACE.
wrong bud, uel headers do not match or make more power than an el. uel headers are best from 0 to 3500rpm, after that power goes down, el headers make power from 3500 to redline, therefore EL are suited better for extra hp.
Dr. BRZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 09:28 PM   #12
Decay107
Turning is for Nerds
 
Decay107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Drives: 35 characters is not enough
Location: PDX
Posts: 1,974
Thanks: 836
Thanked 1,259 Times in 717 Posts
Mentioned: 186 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. BRZ View Post
wrong bud, uel headers do not match or make more power than an el. uel headers are best from 0 to 3500rpm, after that power goes down, el headers make power from 3500 to redline, therefore EL are suited better for extra hp.
Wrong, friend

For some reason manufacturers are still feeding people this line about how ELs give more power and UELs give more low down torque. Most tuners who see a lot of these however, are getting same numbers up top with a good UEL as any given EL with more torque. Bob (Driftoffice) and Vit (VitViper)both seem to get their best numbers consistently out of Tomei and its derivatives.

For me, I had a Nameless and my Tomei eats it alive literally everywhere. (that's a lie, there is an area from 4100-4200 where Nameless has about +3 ft-lbs, but I'm +40 at 3500) Same dyno, same baseline, It did exactly the same as the Ace 350 on the same fuel with a little more torque.

And for you to make a statement as broad as "el headers make power from 3500 to redline" makes me think you might not know what you are talking about. Every header performs differently and 3500 is smack in the middle of the torque deficit on most equal length headers.

Give this a read
http://blog.vittuned.com/just-a-coup...-vs-tomei-uel/

Last edited by Decay107; 12-17-2016 at 09:43 PM.
Decay107 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Decay107 For This Useful Post:
john5757 (12-18-2016), renfield90 (12-27-2016), Teseo (12-18-2016), ThatAsianBradah (02-05-2018)
Old 12-18-2016, 11:50 AM   #13
max20s14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Drives: 14' Raven M/T - 02' is300
Location: alabama
Posts: 161
Thanks: 45
Thanked 28 Times in 21 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decay107 View Post
Wrong, friend

For some reason manufacturers are still feeding people this line about how ELs give more power and UELs give more low down torque. Most tuners who see a lot of these however, are getting same numbers up top with a good UEL as any given EL with more torque. Bob (Driftoffice) and Vit (VitViper)both seem to get their best numbers consistently out of Tomei and its derivatives.

For me, I had a Nameless and my Tomei eats it alive literally everywhere. (that's a lie, there is an area from 4100-4200 where Nameless has about +3 ft-lbs, but I'm +40 at 3500) Same dyno, same baseline, It did exactly the same as the Ace 350 on the same fuel with a little more torque.

And for you to make a statement as broad as "el headers make power from 3500 to redline" makes me think you might not know what you are talking about. Every header performs differently and 3500 is smack in the middle of the torque deficit on most equal length headers.

Give this a read
http://blog.vittuned.com/just-a-coup...-vs-tomei-uel/
good find. So is it possible the Tomei UEL outclasses the HKS and the Tomei EL?
max20s14 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to max20s14 For This Useful Post:
Decay107 (12-18-2016)
Old 12-18-2016, 01:47 PM   #14
bfrank1972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S Argento
Location: Westport,CT
Posts: 1,855
Thanks: 517
Thanked 1,039 Times in 616 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decay107 View Post
Wrong, friend

For some reason manufacturers are still feeding people this line about how ELs give more power and UELs give more low down torque. Most tuners who see a lot of these however, are getting same numbers up top with a good UEL as any given EL with more torque. Bob (Driftoffice) and Vit (VitViper)both seem to get their best numbers consistently out of Tomei and its derivatives.

For me, I had a Nameless and my Tomei eats it alive literally everywhere. (that's a lie, there is an area from 4100-4200 where Nameless has about +3 ft-lbs, but I'm +40 at 3500) Same dyno, same baseline, It did exactly the same as the Ace 350 on the same fuel with a little more torque.

And for you to make a statement as broad as "el headers make power from 3500 to redline" makes me think you might not know what you are talking about. Every header performs differently and 3500 is smack in the middle of the torque deficit on most equal length headers.

Give this a read
http://blog.vittuned.com/just-a-coup...-vs-tomei-uel/
I think anyone who argues/claims that "UEL is better than EL", or "EL is better than UEL" is making claims that are too broad. More important factors go into the design that make power for our motors, not to mention general ftiment/build quality/reliability. And then there's the tune. Way too many cumulative factors to simplify it down to UEL vs EL.
bfrank1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to bfrank1972 For This Useful Post:
Decay107 (12-18-2016)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB Tomei UEL headers pleasurevictim Want-To-Buy Requests 3 11-12-2016 03:51 PM
Tomei UEL vs JDL UEL headers tdotBRZ Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 46 03-20-2016 10:25 AM
Tomei headers - why no cat? gMit Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 8 01-06-2016 12:07 AM
WTB Tomei Type 80, Tomei UEL headers Justin91M Want-To-Buy Requests 1 12-19-2014 11:42 AM
gains from catless headers? Gilwith1l Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 12 04-03-2014 09:26 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.