suspension question

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

This thread is going better than expected...great advice in here!

To the OP...read read read! Then read some more. Do a lot of research and always question what you read. Not everything you read on the internet is true. Find some suspension books. All while driving the car stock and having a damn good time (safely). I highly recommend autocrossing as a good/safe/fun way to learn how to drive fast and control the car. It also helps you feel what could make the car better.

How To Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn is a good easy start...a little old but still great info. Don't worry if you get overwhelmed...suspension stuff is complicated but if something is confusing, put the book down and come back to it later.

- Andrew

Read all this guys posts too!

[Bruninho8]

oo ok. im liking the sound of HPDE more than autox. im gonna look into that. and yea im gonna start reading like a maniac about tuning haha.

If coilovers have all these negatives, what are the positives to them? whats the main reason for adding them?

[JoeBoxer]

Adjustable ride height is the main reason for most people. From my limited experience with coilovers anything under $1k is probably not worth running if you serious about performance, if you just want to slam it and don't care about the ride they are fine i guess.

Seriously go to Racecomps user profile and read his posts.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Bruninho8

oo ok. im liking the sound of HPDE more than autox. im gonna look into that. and yea im gonna start reading like a maniac about tuning haha.

If coilovers have all these negatives, what are the positives to them? whats the main reason for adding them?

a good coilover can easily be faster and more comfortable but they are just expensive. you dont really gain much other than laptimes. they get used because you never want to run more tire than your suspension can handle and modern performance tires are really fast

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by Bruninho8

oo ok. im liking the sound of HPDE more than autox. im gonna look into that. and yea im gonna start reading like a maniac about tuning haha.

If coilovers have all these negatives, what are the positives to them? whats the main reason for adding them?

More controllable and quicker weight transfer, more precise adjustability, etc. Alignments are easier to adjust correctly because the wheel moves less. the faster the weight transfer (for instance from left to right in an S-curve) helps the car to change directions more predictably as the outside suspension is loaded more quickly instead of sloshing around slowly. Compare a minivan to an F1 car. the F1 car can change directions instantly without any drama. The F1 car will also have a much, MUCH harsher ride...

Some install coilovers to make the car look cool. Lowering springs are safe if they only lower a bit and are only a bit stiffer than stock, otherwise too much and they can trash the shock/strut internals. Coilovers are the only safe way to lower the car more than an inch or so.

Coilovers aren't "bad" per se, but a lot of people get them without completely understanding how the suspension system is affected as a whole, like the whole roll center topic mentioned above. Too many people think "lower CoG is better!" but the car's CG is already one of the lowest in the world. In addition, I've seen a lot of products that are already on the market that are assumed to make the car better simply because that's what other cars have needed. One instance is suspension bushings. I read a very detailed article investigating bump-steer on the 86. (Bump steer is caused by the suspension geometry inflicting some toe change on the wheel as it compresses through it's travel). Bump-steer isn't always bad, it can be designed into the suspension to act as kind of "seasoning" on the car's handling. They found that it did have some bump-steer, but the soft rear busing on the lower control arm would react differently under braking and cornering, affecting the bump-steer in a good way. Install stiffer bushings and this effect is eliminated, possible for the worse. So, coilovers are kind of in the same realm. People automatically assume the car needs X, Y, and Z parts either because some ad said they need it, their previous car needed it, or a friend who "knows about cars" said so.

I wish I could remember where that article was... I found the link here on FT86club.

[Bruninho8]

gotcha. damn so i guess i wont be lowering the car for a while :/ hahaha


in response to wheelhaus: yea i deff need to start doing research lol

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

Read all this guys posts too!

+1!

[giraffee]

Great advice, it's great to see the community helping each other out and not just saying:
"Y don't you do a ya noob!" Or something to that effect.

[Arnie_1]

Lots of good info so far here. Good work gents.

One thing to consider in the HPDE vs Autox debate is cost. HPDE are usually much more expensive. Usual fees are about $150-250 per day for an HPDE, plus material costs (brake pads, rotors, fuel and tires). An AutoX can be about $40-60 for entry fee and material costs can be pretty much nil. HPDE's are much harder on a car compared to an autox. One thing I do prefer about an Autox over HPDE for a new driver is that its relatively low speed. The chance of doing severe damage to yourself and your car is much less in a low speed parking lot. (Granted you can do damage in both if you try hard enough ) However, big plus in an HPDE is seat time. you get much more seat time compared to an Autox. But you pay a lot more. I'd look into practice or test an tune days at your local SCCA chapter if you want more runs per day in an AutoX.

I'm glad I got my start in Autox. You learn very valuable skills that you can use on the road as well as later in a HPDE all in a low speed and safe environment. Of course, nothing says you can't to do both! However, I'd rather spin my car at 50 mph in a parking lot around some cones AutoX) rather than 100 mph into the grass and barriers (HPDE) with my brand new car and brand new license.

Good luck!

[Bruninho8]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

Adjustable ride height is the main reason for most people. From my limited experience with coilovers anything under $1k is probably not worth running if you serious about performance, if you just want to slam it and don't care about the ride they are fine i guess.

Seriously go to Racecomps user profile and read his posts.

So pretty much if in the future i do decide to lower my car, dont half ass it with some cheap coilovers. Do it right and get something good.

And ill go take a look at his posts

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Arnie_1

Lots of good info so far here. Good work gents.

One thing to consider in the HPDE vs Autox debate is cost. HPDE are usually much more expensive. Usual fees are about $150-250 per day for an HPDE, plus material costs (brake pads, rotors, fuel and tires). An AutoX can be about $40-60 for entry fee and material costs can be pretty much nil. HPDE's are much harder on a car compared to an autox. One thing I do prefer about an Autox over HPDE for a new driver is that its relatively low speed. The chance of doing severe damage to yourself and your car is much less in a low speed parking lot. (Granted you can do damage in both if you try hard enough ) However, big plus in an HPDE is seat time. you get much more seat time compared to an Autox. But you pay a lot more. I'd look into practice or test an tune days at your local SCCA chapter if you want more runs per day in an AutoX.

I'm glad I got my start in Autox. You learn very valuable skills that you can use on the road as well as later in a HPDE all in a low speed and safe environment. Of course, nothing says you can't to do both! However, I'd rather spin my car at 50 mph in a parking lot around some cones AutoX) rather than 100 mph into the grass and barriers (HPDE) with my brand new car and brand new license.

Good luck!

Good points here too. I think Myles used to make new students that were a little too aggressive duct tape their wallets to the dashboard

This thread could even be stickied as a guide to new drivers looking at getting into this sort of stuff. Just a thought.

- Andrew

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Bruninho8

gotcha. damn so i guess i wont be lowering the car for a while :/ hahaha

Don't feel bad, you'll have more fun if you put that suspension money into track days and autocrosses (and consummables like pads, tires, fluids, etc.) You can always mod the car later on.

[Bruninho8]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Don't feel bad, you'll have more fun if you put that suspension money into track days and autocrosses (and consummables like pads, tires, fluids, etc.) You can always mod the car later on.

Good point. now i just have to wait and get the car haha sometime soon hopefully