Poor Sales of Toyota GT86/Scion FR-S Likely To Rule Out New Variants

[regal]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

I would love to know how you would get 250 hp out of a 2 liter engine reliably without FI, unless that's what you meant.

Variable Vale Lift or Heads in general, forged crack and rods, higher redline, Honda did with the AP1. I'm talking advertised crank hp. There are already guys pushing 200 whp NA, which is getting close to 250 advertised hp. Unless my calculator is acting up again

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

Variable Vale Lift or Heads in general, forged crack and rods, higher redline, Honda did with the AP1. I'm talking advertised crank hp. There are already guys pushing 200 whp NA, which is getting close to 250 advertised hp. Unless my calculator is acting up again

Regal.. Would you have paid another 5k or more for the car to get those extra ponies.. ? The S2k you referred to was more expensive 20 years ago than the FRS is today.. What would it be in today's money?
Not to mention driveability.. I can drive the FRS around town easily without having to keep the rpms up all the time.. It's all a compromise.. Toybaru did good with this car in bringing a car to market that performs reasonably well yet functions fine as a daily commuter..
If the car was equipped as you think it should be from the factory.. This thread would be labeled... "Great car, wish it wasn't so expensive so I could afford one"

[B3yondL]

They need to knock down the price of the base a couple grand. We all know and appreciate the ride, the average murican however goes 'why not a mustang, bigger numbers hurr'

Maybe add in that rumored 2.5l 250hp or a turbo model, but the price must be lower than 30k, maybe around 28k.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Regal.. Would you have paid another 5k or more for the car to get those extra ponies.. ? The S2k you referred to was more expensive 20 years ago than the FRS is today.. What would it be in today's money?
"

Hell no. But look at all the mechanics in a WRX. I mean if you priced it out piece by piece it would probably ring up double the FRS.


The S2K was made by Honda, their expectations are much higher than Subaru as far as quality and long term durability(IMHO). Not just the motor that double wishbone suspension, convertible chassis and mechanics, and Honda's ability to engineer a car that can last a half million miles.
Don't forget I never bought an S2K or WRX but I jumped on the FRS as soon one was available near me. Its a great package, but like anything there is room for CI.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by regal

Hell no. But look at all the mechanics in a WRX. I mean if you priced it out piece by piece it would probably ring up double the FRS.

Lol no it wouldn't. They sell way more quantities and its developed along side the Impreza line, this helps decrease costs and research as the platform is developed together.

People on this forum really have no grasp of economics, and product research and developement of new lines. Creating a new vehicle or modifying the BRZ with other parts from the factory is not as simple as doing so yourself with the aftermarkt, theres process, quality control and lawyers which all get taken into consideration, not to mention other product line cannibalization. The car is what it is until the 2nd generation comes out, and even then it may be Toyota only, get over it.

[Mondongonica]

Hello everyone I'm new to this scene and just wanted to agree that this is an enthusiasts car. literally just sold my fox Mustang and bought the BRZ last week.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Lol no it wouldn't. They sell way more quantities and its developed along side the Impreza line, this helps decrease costs and research as the platform is developed together.
.

I don't mean volume, I mean value. Of course you can sell a 10 million rolls of good toilet paper cheaper than 100k rolls of lower quality paper.


I am talking value added, google if you don't understand it.


There is much more value added components on the WRX than our FRS, a ton more and they cost the same. Its a problem. And I'm not saying the FRS isn't Quality, there just ain't a whole lot too it.


The whole issue of not meeting says volumes is capital payback ( again google), these days automakers want it as fast as possible. The Japanese used to be famous for accepting long paybacks, up to a decade. That was the "glory" ears before OBDII. If the platform survives their business case payback then maybe we will see more value added goodies.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

The Japanese used to be famous for accepting long paybacks, up to a decade. That was the "glory" ears before OBDII. If the platform survives their business case payback then maybe we will see more value added goodies.

That practice was called "dumping". Where the Japanese we're charging less than the car cost to build.. That's how they captured market share.. They are no longer in a position to do such practices.. and other OEMs are driving prices because competition is fierce which also helps lower the price..

[regal]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

That practice was called "dumping". Where the Japanese we're charging less than the car cost to build.. That's how they captured market share.. They are no longer in a position to do such practices.. and other OEMs are driving prices because competition is fierce which also helps lower the price..

There was some dumping. You could call the LFA dumping, but I think that's wrong.


There was also a longer term thinking than American companies had ever done. Take the archetypical 93 Honda Civic. They invested a ton of capital to produce a car that outside the rust belt are common to be driven today as long as the timing belt and water pump maintenance was kept up. And changing a timing belt on an EG civic was engineered to be so simple. There had to be a long payback in that business case, the cars defined what quality should mean imho.


Dumping would be the 90's Hyundai Accent where they didn't even invest enough capital to have rotors separate from the axels/hubs, basically a car that was totaled when the brakes wore out.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by regal

There is much more value added components on the WRX than our FRS, a ton more and they cost the same. Its a problem. And I'm not saying the FRS isn't Quality, there just ain't a whole lot too it.

And why do you think they can add that level of value you're talking about.......b/c the WRX line is developed from the Imprezas and it keeps cost down during R&D allowing Subaru to increase quality on the WRX....previous statement stands.

[Mikem53]

The LFA is a statement product.. Low volume, intended to show the companies prowess when it comes to technology and performance for the brand name..
That's different than dumping hundreds of thousands of corollas at a slight loss to gain market share over their competitors.. The Koreans did use the same practice of dumping.. It worked too.. Have u seen the prices of Hyundais recently.. Catch up and pay back time...
Sometimes we get lucky and buy something worth more than we pay.. But that doesn't last and in the end.. Things work out and prices eventually catch up and make up for the losses.. The twins are a good value.. The car has compromises
and profit margins must be tight.. I was glad to get a sports car at this price that satisfies my enthusiasts need for a drivers car... When you compare it to other purest type sports cars... We got a hell of a deal for the money.. This car is also setting a trend that other automakers are now trying to define their own offering for such a car. That will only help this type of niche in the market place for us enthusiasts. So either way we come out ahead.
Long live the affordable rearwheel drive lightweight sports car!

Originally Posted by regal

There was some dumping. You could call the LFA dumping, but I think that's wrong.


There was also a longer term thinking than American companies had ever done. Take the archetypical 93 Honda Civic. They invested a ton of capital to produce a car that outside the rust belt are common to be driven today as long as the timing belt and water pump maintenance was kept up. And changing a timing belt on an EG civic was engineered to be so simple. There had to be a long payback in that business case, the cars defined what quality should mean imho.


Dumping would be the 90's Hyundai Accent where they didn't even invest enough capital to have rotors separate from the axels/hubs, basically a car that was totaled when the brakes wore out.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

The LFA is a statement product.. Low volume, intended to show the companies prowess when it comes to technology and performance for the brand name..
That's different than dumping hundreds of thousands of corollas at a slight loss to gain market share over their competitors.. The Koreans did use the same practice of dumping.. It worked too.. Have u seen the prices of Hyundais recently.. Catch up and pay back time...
Sometimes we get lucky and buy something worth more than we pay.. But that doesn't last and in the end.. Things work out and prices eventually catch up and make up for the losses.. The twins are a good value.. The car has compromises
and profit margins must be tight.. I was glad to get a sports car at this price that satisfies my enthusiasts need for a drivers car... When you compare it to other purest type sports cars... We got a hell of a deal for the money.. This car is also setting a trend that other automakers are now trying to define their own offering for such a car. That will only help this type of niche in the market place for us enthusiasts. So either way we come out ahead.
Long live the affordable rearwheel drive lightweight sports car!

I agree!

[ZionsWrath]

O look a thread about poor sales of a car?

WOW the next day there is a contradictory "report"
http://jalopnik.com/everyone-is-wron...les-1540661520

You have to take journalism with a lot of salt until manufacturers make statements and reveal production vehicles. Until then most publication is speculation and "educated guesses"

[vh_supra26]

FR-S is doing great in North America; not sure about other markets tho.