follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Forced Induction

Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-27-2018, 08:51 AM   #379
StraightOuttaCanadaEh
Wes
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Drives: Artisan Spirits '17 86
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,792
Thanks: 1,163
Thanked 1,673 Times in 993 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
This thread should be called the FI fearmongering/discouragement facts lol
__________________
Instagram: @gt86ws
StraightOuttaCanadaEh is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to StraightOuttaCanadaEh For This Useful Post:
weederr33 (03-27-2018)
Old 03-27-2018, 10:11 AM   #380
ATL BRZ
Driving Coach
 
ATL BRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: BRZ
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 3,666
Thanks: 3,723
Thanked 4,136 Times in 1,707 Posts
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 6 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Six View Post
Amazing how some motors just keep on chugging under very harsh conditions. I now have blown motor #2 thanks to a rocker arm failure. This was a fresh block, forged rods and pistons, 11.5 :1 , JRSC 90mm pulley with the rev limiter set at 7K, all the fuel upgrades, fresh 5w30 Castrol Syntech and JR oil cooler. Motor was built local in Orlando by well respected shop and I watched the assembly so I know what went in. Tuning was specifically modified for the 90mm pulley by again a very well respected local tuner. The passenger side head is total carnage with a hole in the cover and the rod from cylinder #1 busted through the top of the block. This happened at Sebring approaching the hairpin.
Pretty much made up my mind that I will be going with an LS swap next as I can't see rolling the dice with another FA20.


That's not the typical rocker failure I've seen. It appears your rocker arm actually just broke in half and then ejected itself. Never seen that before. I've heard more of the rocker arms having a manufacturing intolerance that allows them to walk off the roller pin and then get ejected.
ATL BRZ is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ATL BRZ For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (03-27-2018)
Old 03-27-2018, 11:12 AM   #381
SPCorBUST
Senior Member
 
SPCorBUST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 935
Thanks: 525
Thanked 399 Times in 255 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL BRZ View Post
That's not the typical rocker failure I've seen. It appears your rocker arm actually just broke in half and then ejected itself. Never seen that before. I've heard more of the rocker arms having a manufacturing intolerance that allows them to walk off the roller pin and then get ejected.
Have heard this as well.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
Setup 1: KW C38, Grams 550, Grams 265, 4bar, FlexFuel, Delicious
Setup 3: JR C30, DW 700, Grams 265, 3bar, FlexFuel, Moto-East
Setup 4: JR C30 HBP, DW 700, Grams 265, 3bar, FlexFuel, Church
Setup 5: JR C30 HBP, DW 700, DW 300, 3bar, FlexFuel, Delicious, Built Motor
Setup 6: JR C30 HBP, DW 700, DW 300, 3bar, FlexFuel, Delicious, Closed Deck Built Motor
SPCorBUST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:16 PM   #382
pgranberg11
BoostedBRZ
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: Turbo BRZ
Location: IL
Posts: 689
Thanks: 171
Thanked 258 Times in 190 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPira7e View Post
INSANE necro thread revival. I wonder how much our understanding of this has improved? My ostentatious logic says that a large contributor to this is from load on the rods. Turbo tends to pile on low end load quickly, as torque comes in much harder and faster than on most supercharger types people are running on this platform. Also, people who put load on at low RPM (lugging the engine WOT at 2,000RPM) are going to stress the rods a lot more than those who are softer with their input.

Just wanted to open this up for discussion again, as after reading this thread, I feel more success and more failure has been had. Any good experiment's data has a large test pool, right? Too bad we have no control..
I blew my motor on a supercharger.... lol snapped a rod right in half. it's documented in my build in case you are curious. I started to look into something called "compressor efficiency" and looking at compressor charts to determine things I wanted. Basically what I found was that the rotrex c38 i had needed to push more PSI than the turbo I just bought that will run at a lower PSI to obtain the same amount of power.
pgranberg11 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pgranberg11 For This Useful Post:
ATL BRZ (03-27-2018), CSG Mike (03-28-2018)
Old 03-27-2018, 12:18 PM   #383
pgranberg11
BoostedBRZ
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: Turbo BRZ
Location: IL
Posts: 689
Thanks: 171
Thanked 258 Times in 190 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post


I've been daily driving this the past month, and have put 18 track days on it since it's been turboed last November.

Still on the stock engine.
how many tune revisions did the car receive to get it to where it's at now?
pgranberg11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:20 PM   #384
tomm.brz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: brz 2017 hksv2
Location: italy
Posts: 2,183
Thanks: 499
Thanked 1,059 Times in 769 Posts
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgranberg11 View Post
I blew my motor on a supercharger.... lol snapped a rod right in half. it's documented in my build in case you are curious. I started to look into something called "compressor efficiency" and looking at compressor charts to determine things I wanted. Basically what I found was that the rotrex c38 i had needed to push more PSI than the turbo I just bought that will run at a lower PSI to obtain the same amount of power.

do you know how much power you had approximatively when you broke the rod?
Cosworth says they tested the stock connecting rods and found 280hp is the maximum safe power, after that it s just lottery
tomm.brz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:28 PM   #385
pgranberg11
BoostedBRZ
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: Turbo BRZ
Location: IL
Posts: 689
Thanks: 171
Thanked 258 Times in 190 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz View Post
do you know how much power you had approximatively when you broke the rod?
Cosworth says they tested the stock connecting rods and found 280hp is the maximum safe power, after that it s just lottery
i was running the standard kraftwerks c38 standard pulley setup with flex fuel mostly running e75+. I never put it on a dyno, but if I could guess probably close to around 300whp. I should also add, I blew up at the track. I drove the car as a daily every day and drove it at the track. I always changed my oil specifically for track days, and then changed the track oil out for fresh oil. It was supercharged for a good 2 years 20k+ miles supercharged? when I did track it, it was over a weekend. probably 10+ 20 minute track sessions. 5 on saturday and 5 on sunday, sometimes a few on friday. So the car was beat on heavily for the entire weekend and then went back to be a daily. The track events were every other month or when i could afford it to put it into perspective. so I can't be too mad lol. It was fun while it lasted, but I sold the supercharger kit and am prepping for turbo.
pgranberg11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:36 PM   #386
tomm.brz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: brz 2017 hksv2
Location: italy
Posts: 2,183
Thanks: 499
Thanked 1,059 Times in 769 Posts
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Cosworth talked about 280hp , not whp, so you were well over the safe limit... and you got bad luck at the lottery eventually : ) oil doesnt count so much at this I think, the problem is the too much torque in a short time that could bend and breaks the rods easily
tomm.brz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:51 PM   #387
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Six View Post
Amazing how some motors just keep on chugging under very harsh conditions. I now have blown motor #2 thanks to a rocker arm failure. This was a fresh block, forged rods and pistons, 11.5 :1 , JRSC 90mm pulley with the rev limiter set at 7K, all the fuel upgrades, fresh 5w30 Castrol Syntech and JR oil cooler. Motor was built local in Orlando by well respected shop and I watched the assembly so I know what went in. Tuning was specifically modified for the 90mm pulley by again a very well respected local tuner. The passenger side head is total carnage with a hole in the cover and the rod from cylinder #1 busted through the top of the block. This happened at Sebring approaching the hairpin.
Pretty much made up my mind that I will be going with an LS swap next as I can't see rolling the dice with another FA20.
The rocker arms are indeed the weakest point of the motor

We've seen them fail, even when hand picked for balance and internal structure (yes, we go that extreme)
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:53 PM   #388
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgranberg11 View Post
how many tune revisions did the car receive to get it to where it's at now?
The actual power number? Not many. Most of the dyno tuning time at @DeliciousTuning was spent on drivability and efficiency, rather than looking for power. The top line is only 10.5 psi at peak output with a GReddy turbo T518Z turbo kit. This is on a stock exhaust and stock front pipe too.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:56 PM   #389
pgranberg11
BoostedBRZ
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: Turbo BRZ
Location: IL
Posts: 689
Thanks: 171
Thanked 258 Times in 190 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
The actual power number? Not many. Most of the dyno tuning time at @DeliciousTuning was spent on drivability and efficiency, rather than looking for power. The top line is only 10.5 psi at peak output with a GReddy turbo T518Z turbo kit.
sorry, I may have asked a poorly worded question.

I meant to ask how many times did the tune have to be revised/ecu needed to be reflashed to be where it's at? (power numbers I don't really care about lol) I don't want to beat on a dead horse, but I feel like just as much as the owner is responsible for how they drive it, the tune also plays a key role in durability as well.
pgranberg11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 01:11 PM   #390
pgranberg11
BoostedBRZ
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: Turbo BRZ
Location: IL
Posts: 689
Thanks: 171
Thanked 258 Times in 190 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz View Post
Cosworth talked about 280hp , not whp, so you were well over the safe limit... and you got bad luck at the lottery eventually : ) oil doesnt count so much at this I think, the problem is the too much torque in a short time that could bend and breaks the rods easily
yea oh totally. I was just sharing my experience and being as detailed as possible so when people do come to this thread there's actually detailed, MAYBE valuable information in here.... lol. I had to read through this whole thread and I was laughing so hard when people were arguing with CSG and Vit especially... like really? but all good.. Just looking to contribute my experience.
pgranberg11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 02:18 PM   #391
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgranberg11 View Post
sorry, I may have asked a poorly worded question.

I meant to ask how many times did the tune have to be revised/ecu needed to be reflashed to be where it's at? (power numbers I don't really care about lol) I don't want to beat on a dead horse, but I feel like just as much as the owner is responsible for how they drive it, the tune also plays a key role in durability as well.
The base map start with has tens of thousands of revisions. On my specific car? I'm not sure but I would guess less than 50, with maybe 10 of them being to optimize output, if that. My car as a whole has a high flash count due to the number of changes made over the course of my ownership.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
pgranberg11 (03-27-2018)
Old 03-28-2018, 01:46 AM   #392
Cal3000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: Panda FR-S
Location: Corona, California
Posts: 531
Thanks: 297
Thanked 377 Times in 161 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I've been daily driving e85 at this power level for 4 years and over 100k miles now. Vortech 3.48 pulley at like 8.5 psi max. High hp low torque. The blower doesn't come alive until 4k rpm, but if i'm banging through gears, I don't see below 4k. The stress on the motor down low is not that big of a difference than stock. Everyone scoffs at the vortech's torque when in reality it's the SC kit that makes the highest hp with the lowest boost pressure.
__________________
Vortech SC on 9psi Pulley, Invidia Catless Front Pipe, Invidia N1 Catback Exhaust
242whp/197ft-lb on Mustang Dyno (91 octane water)
284whp/223ft-lb on Mustang Dyno (E85)
Delicious Tuning
Cal3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
kill brain cells, not facts

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FlexFuel and Facts Shiv@Openflash Software Tuning 69 10-16-2019 01:08 PM
Anyone Else? Hearters Blowing when off. Kiske Issues | Warranty | Recalls / TSB 7 04-09-2014 05:22 PM
How cold is your a/c blowing? jermyzy Issues | Warranty | Recalls / TSB 68 08-18-2013 03:29 PM
Supra Blowing Up radroach Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 2 07-21-2013 09:14 PM
Facts you may or may not know about your GT86/BRZ/FR-s FiRStsc10n Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 41 07-09-2013 03:05 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.