Owning S2000 and 86

[Chad86]

Anyone own both an S2000 and 86? Would you choose only one or the other? I recently fell in love with the S2000 and I am thinking of saving to purchase an 06+ in the future as a spring/summer car that I will leave NA.
My 86 is my supercharged daily driver.

[soulreapersteve]

The first car I ever wanted was an S2000,it's the car that got me into cars. Had the chance at a pristine one at under 20k but didn't have money up front to buy it. By the time I acquired enough funds, I discovered the Twins. Asked myself if I wanted a pristine (but still used) car or be the first owner of a new car.

Obviously, picked the FRS. Anyhoo, still want the s2000 later on but that's going to change since I'm looking at a higher price range for next car.

[Re_Invention]

I've owned a '99 S2000 for several years now and have slowly turned it into a track car.

I've spent years salivating over the twins before they were born, done 5+ test drives and put a track prepped BRZ through its paces on a day of lapping the Nurburgring Nordschleife.

I HATE the S2000 as a weekend toy car. It's a very well built car but has a focus for 9/10ths and up driving. In factory spec and driving it at sane legal speeds is akin to driving a 6th gen civic SI; a sporty civic with b16 'Honda soul'. For taller guys, it's a terrible place to be (personal gripe). Again, the quality of the car is outstanding - Honda took their time in building the vehicle and it shows, it gushes of excellent fit and finish, even after 15 years. But the driving experience, on public roads, is piss-poor: good steering weight but minimal feedback, peaky engine (obviously), high-speed is a buzz kill for cheap thrills, high handling limit is a buzz kill for cheap thrills, a shifter that is fickle outside wot, and it's simply uncomfortable to drive to and from the twisty stuff. Fan boys will find excuses for it, I know I have, but it is what it is - rough.

Now put it on a race track and its one of the most convincing street racecars I've been in. A hardtop, half cage and Rival S tires and it'll be a poor(er) mans Cayman GT4. I started modding the car to be autocrossing friendlier about 2 years ago - AEM EMS, test pipe, throttle body/intake manifold, 245 square tires on 17x9 wheels, brakes/fluids/baffles/bars/catch can/rad/cooling/etc. The engine feels like an early 90s VW VR6 engine with schrick cams - great midrange punch to redline pull - power throughout the range in reasonable gear. Now it's going full race car mode with a cage, seats, harness and either chopped windshield ala le mans style or hardtop ala gt3 style. Bigass wing to come either way At any event I've got a dog pant smile on inside my helmet when driving the S2000, it feels like it's doing what it was meant to do.

I can't speak so much about the twins as a weekend car... Every test drive in recent memory had me fall in love with the car. It's a foil to the S2000, it's fun factor is entirely accessible at legal and sane speeds. I love the (relative) comfort level inside the cabin, the steering feedback, the less-is-more power and linear delivery. It's a different philosophy, another recipe of a lamb dish, so to speak. I giggle when I drive the twins, even more so than any in any of the miata's I've owned. It's simply a balanced car for public roads - Cyndi Lauper girls-wanna-have-fun fun, as much fun as a $600 1985 MR2 you're borrowing from a friend. That being said... I'm getting older and I don't drive on mountain or canyon roads above the speed limit anymore. That thrill is gone and replaced with guilt/anxiety (family to feed). I don't blame others for chasing that green fairy, though, and the twins are just the drink for it.

But on track that's where the BRZ fell short in my experience with Rent4Ring's track-prepped car. I much more enjoyed the Stage 2 Swift I've spent some 25+ NoS laps in than the BRZ. With the Swift you're goated into going beyond limits because the R888 rubber would bail you out (different euro compound apparently) and on track that's awesome - it's a cheap, modest powered fwd hatch that weighs little and you can flick in and out of trouble. The BRZ is an intern applying for a senior consultant position. The linear power band that's great on the street goes flat at the track - more, more, more! Same goes for the chassis and rubber, the cheaper feeling shifting and overall general 'cost' of the car begins to fail to fulfill. Even with a cage and KW suspension & BBK. Not to say it can't feel good but a track BRZ needs more compensation than a track S2K does. That fun balance at 9/10ths+ turns into a glass ceiling. That said, the twins I autocross against put up comparable numbers with fewer mods! E.g. the twins punch above their weight for sure. I will say they don't feel as good doing it, howeer. And there's a philosophical point of identification - do you want a better feeling or better lap times. Me, I don't care about lap times because I benchmark myself, I care only about how big my smile is.

The S2K puts an end-of-days shifter kart smile on my face at the track. It hurts at the end of the day and I feel accomplished. The twins puts a stupid, wonderful, grin on my face at every right turning-lane green light. Switch the rolls and I'm let down by expectations.

And the miata, good lord... I've only had NB's (one stock one modded) and some autocross time in an NC. The miata is like a glock - it's the best. People will convince you their Springfield Armory's, Beretta, CZ (S2000), H&K or Sig (Twins), Walther, etc. are better..and it's arguably personal preference but there's no mistaking the awe inspiring unmatched capability of a Glock - freshly collected or in competitive format, you will undeniably become humbled and a better driver because of time in a Miata. It's an earned smile.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

That said, the twins I autocross against put up comparable numbers with fewer mods! E.g. the twins punch above their weight for sure. I will say they don't feel as good doing it, howeer. And there's a philosophical point of identification - do you want a better feeling or better lap times. Me, I don't care about lap times because I benchmark myself, I care only about how big my smile is.

Think there's a chance you could swap cars with one of those guys for a fun run? Would be interesting to hear your perspective on an 86 that's setup for the same thing your S2k is setup for. Alignment does wonders for the car.

[DarkSunrise]

Speed Academy was asked this question recently. They have an S2000 and FR-S (and FD) that are modified for track use, and their supercharged FR-S recently won the Ontario1500.

Q: What car do you think has a better chassis the an s2000 the rx7 fd or the Scion

A: that's kind of like picking the hottest Victoria Secret lingerie model. Haha. All three chassis have proven themselves in various forms of motorsport. The FR-S has the lowest center of gravity and thus the easiest of the three to drive at the limit. It oversteers so naturally and so gradually, it's very special that way. But the S2000 has an amazing engine and transmission and a very raw, alive feel to its handling, it's really rewarding to drive at the limit as it requires fast reflexes.

Q: The FR-S seems to do everything just right and i guess my question is difficult to answer because all 3 cars are just awesome cars if you had a choice between the 3 cars for an outright track assault at Calabogie given all 3 cars are setup correctly what car would be your first choice and what would be your last choice Sorry for the really difficult questions lol

A: if all three had stock engines but we're allowed to setup the suspension and brakes the way we like then I think the S2000 is probably the fastest of the three. But with the supercharger the FR-S should be faster than the S2000, and with the RX-7 being turbocharged from the factory all you need to do there is turn up the boost. Now, if we're talking Unlimited Time Attack builds, I think I'd go with the FR-S since I prefer its handling and weight distribution, followed by the S2000

I thought their comments about the FR-S were spot on. The way it oversteers is really friendly. It will rotate, but is relatively easy to catch. I think it's a combination of the weight distribution and suspension design/geometry. The edgier S2000 as a weekend/track-only car sounds great though. I would vote for adding it to your garage, but doesn't seem to be an option in your poll?

@CSG Mike also daily drives and tracks both a shop BRZ and his own S2000CR. Maybe he can chime in with some thoughts.

[MisterSheep]

I've driven both because I was looking into many cars before I bought the FR-S. Prefer the FR-S.. Even though I sound like a broken record but the s2000 was wayy too small for me and I just don't like convertibles and thats just my preferance. The s2000 is a marvelous car and can do the same things (if not more stock) as the fr-s. I run canyon runs with a buddy of mine who has his s2000 and we do fairly the same. Even though I seem to have gotten him on a straight line from a stop.... which I don't understand... lol maybe he wasn't giving it his all and/or I got the better jump.. Anyways just drive one. I prefer to have only one car, and I'm already set on the next car I would get as a family/DD car... a 2000 sti wagon.

[LOLS2K]

I owned a '00 S2000 and now have an 86. I'd have both if I could. I prefer the 86 over the S2000 that I owned, however I would take an S2000 CR over my 86.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

I've owned a '99 S2000 for several years now and have slowly turned it into a track car.

I've spent years salivating over the twins before they were born, done 5+ test drives and put a track prepped BRZ through its paces on a day of lapping the Nurburgring Nordschleife.

I HATE the S2000 as a weekend toy car. It's a very well built car but has a focus for 9/10ths and up driving. In factory spec and driving it at sane legal speeds is akin to driving a 6th gen civic SI; a sporty civic with b16 'Honda soul'. For taller guys, it's a terrible place to be (personal gripe). Again, the quality of the car is outstanding - Honda took their time in building the vehicle and it shows, it gushes of excellent fit and finish, even after 15 years. But the driving experience, on public roads, is piss-poor: good steering weight but minimal feedback, peaky engine (obviously), high-speed is a buzz kill for cheap thrills, high handling limit is a buzz kill for cheap thrills, a shifter that is fickle outside wot, and it's simply uncomfortable to drive to and from the twisty stuff. Fan boys will find excuses for it, I know I have, but it is what it is - rough.

Now put it on a race track and its one of the most convincing street racecars I've been in. A hardtop, half cage and Rival S tires and it'll be a poor(er) mans Cayman GT4. I started modding the car to be autocrossing friendlier about 2 years ago - AEM EMS, test pipe, throttle body/intake manifold, 245 square tires on 17x9 wheels, brakes/fluids/baffles/bars/catch can/rad/cooling/etc. The engine feels like an early 90s VW VR6 engine with schrick cams - great midrange punch to redline pull - power throughout the range in reasonable gear. Now it's going full race car mode with a cage, seats, harness and either chopped windshield ala le mans style or hardtop ala gt3 style. Bigass wing to come either way At any event I've got a dog pant smile on inside my helmet when driving the S2000, it feels like it's doing what it was meant to do.

I can't speak so much about the twins as a weekend car... Every test drive in recent memory had me fall in love with the car. It's a foil to the S2000, it's fun factor is entirely accessible at legal and sane speeds. I love the (relative) comfort level inside the cabin, the steering feedback, the less-is-more power and linear delivery. It's a different philosophy, another recipe of a lamb dish, so to speak. I giggle when I drive the twins, even more so than any in any of the miata's I've owned. It's simply a balanced car for public roads - Cyndi Lauper girls-wanna-have-fun fun, as much fun as a $600 1985 MR2 you're borrowing from a friend. That being said... I'm getting older and I don't drive on mountain or canyon roads above the speed limit anymore. That thrill is gone and replaced with guilt/anxiety (family to feed). I don't blame others for chasing that green fairy, though, and the twins are just the drink for it.

But on track that's where the BRZ fell short in my experience with Rent4Ring's track-prepped car. I much more enjoyed the Stage 2 Swift I've spent some 25+ NoS laps in than the BRZ. With the Swift you're goated into going beyond limits because the R888 rubber would bail you out (different euro compound apparently) and on track that's awesome - it's a cheap, modest powered fwd hatch that weighs little and you can flick in and out of trouble. The BRZ is an intern applying for a senior consultant position. The linear power band that's great on the street goes flat at the track - more, more, more! Same goes for the chassis and rubber, the cheaper feeling shifting and overall general 'cost' of the car begins to fail to fulfill. Even with a cage and KW suspension & BBK. Not to say it can't feel good but a track BRZ needs more compensation than a track S2K does. That fun balance at 9/10ths+ turns into a glass ceiling. That said, the twins I autocross against put up comparable numbers with fewer mods! E.g. the twins punch above their weight for sure. I will say they don't feel as good doing it, howeer. And there's a philosophical point of identification - do you want a better feeling or better lap times. Me, I don't care about lap times because I benchmark myself, I care only about how big my smile is.

The S2K puts an end-of-days shifter kart smile on my face at the track. It hurts at the end of the day and I feel accomplished. The twins puts a stupid, wonderful, grin on my face at every right turning-lane green light. Switch the rolls and I'm let down by expectations.

And the miata, good lord... I've only had NB's (one stock one modded) and some autocross time in an NC. The miata is like a glock - it's the best. People will convince you their Springfield Armory's, Beretta, CZ (S2000), H&K or Sig (Twins), Walther, etc. are better..and it's arguably personal preference but there's no mistaking the awe inspiring unmatched capability of a Glock - freshly collected or in competitive format, you will undeniably become humbled and a better driver because of time in a Miata. It's an earned smile.

In short, you dislike the s2k because the limits can't be explored on the street....

That's about how I feel about the 991 GT3. Brilliant car, but I wouldn't ever consider purchasing one, because for me to have fun dancing around the limit, I'd be way, way deep into illegal speeds.

Have you considered gears for your s2k? AP1 gearing is rather tall, but that was the fashion back when it was released.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Speed Academy was asked this question recently. They have an S2000 and FR-S (and FD) that are modified for track use, and their supercharged FR-S recently won the Ontario1500.



I thought their comments about the FR-S were spot on. The way it oversteers is really friendly. It will rotate, but is relatively easy to catch. I think it's a combination of the weight distribution and suspension design/geometry. The edgier S2000 as a weekend/track-only car sounds great though. I would vote for adding it to your garage, but doesn't seem to be an option in your poll?

@CSG Mike also daily drives and tracks both a shop BRZ and his own S2000CR. Maybe he can chime in with some thoughts.

It's all preference, but I actually completely disagree with what they say.

A stock FRS/BRZ is easy to progressively oversteer with progressive inputs, but that's not the "fast" way to drive it, even if it's proper. All the (fast) heavily modified cars eliminate this aspect of the FRS/BRZ's handling through either high spring rates, geometry changes, or aero. Ultimately, the "ease of rotation" comes from the car's lower limits from the factory, not the actual design. Try putting 215 rear tires on a s2k

For an unlimited class build, it depends on how "unlimited" it really is. At that point, weight balance and distribution are meaningless, as only corner load at speed is what matters, not static loads when the car is sitting still on scales.

Remember, at extreme levels, aero is the most regulated aspects of the cars, not power, or suspension. Whether it's F1, WTAC, SuperGT, or DTM, aero is always the most restricted aspect of the cars competing.

[Sideways&Smiling]

I think it would be cool to own both, but not worth the cost.

S2000 = better engine and better suspension design, but worse aero, shorter wheelbase = requires much faster reflexes and isn't as stable at high speeds.

FR-S/BRZ = not as special feeling, feels more like other similar past FR coupes, like the 240sx/Silvia, but more polished aka better stock suspension and faster steering rack/etc... not as twitchy = easier to drive

Depends on what you want to do with them, I guess. and also on how much money you have and what other alternative options you might be into.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's all preference, but I actually completely disagree with what they say.

A stock FRS/BRZ is easy to progressively oversteer with progressive inputs, but that's not the "fast" way to drive it, even if it's proper. All the (fast) heavily modified cars eliminate this aspect of the FRS/BRZ's handling through either high spring rates, geometry changes, or aero. Ultimately, the "ease of rotation" comes from the car's lower limits from the factory, not the actual design. Try putting 215 rear tires on a s2k

or just drive an S2K with very worn tires in the rain lol

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

In short, you dislike the s2k because the limits can't be explored on the street....

That's about how I feel about the 991 GT3. Brilliant car, but I wouldn't ever consider purchasing one, because for me to have fun dancing around the limit, I'd be way, way deep into illegal speeds.

Have you considered gears for your s2k? AP1 gearing is rather tall, but that was the fashion back when it was released.

Yeah, that's absolutely it.

I briefly looked into a final drive gear for S2K as-is. Wasn't convinced enough to go with a 4.77 final drive, 4.56 sounded like the right bump up but I decided to wait and leave the s/c door open if I ever grew a pair to go down that route then reassess what needs addressing. So many parts, so little money. Do you have a preference for a particular final drive?

Reading back what I posted... I want to emphasis that as you compare the Twins to the higher-weight class cars they punch at, you get into quality-reverberation. What I mean by that; at high(er) metrics and mechanical demands - those small(er) tangibles and intangibles begin to compound, stripping a car to its base where quality matters considerably. That the twins punch above their weight is the best compliment I can think of. That they need greater compensation than the higher weight class to travel similar speeds is logical and not a slight to their achievement whatsoever. Again, for me its a feeling and I don't expect to feel as good because it's saving serious $ getting similar results, either price or details suffer. One thing I've learned modding the S2000 - keeping quality up is a direct function of money. Creating automotive harmony is pretty damn extensive and exponentially expensive.

Nothing but praise for both cars!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Yeah, that's absolutely it.

I briefly looked into a final drive gear for S2K as-is. Wasn't convinced enough to go with a 4.77 final drive, 4.56 sounded like the right bump up but I decided to wait and leave the s/c door open if I ever grew a pair to go down that route then reassess what needs addressing. So many parts, so little money. Do you have a preference for a particular final drive?

Reading back what I posted... I want to emphasis that as you compare the Twins to the higher-weight class cars they punch at, you get into quality-reverberation. What I mean by that; at high(er) metrics and mechanical demands - those small(er) tangibles and intangibles begin to compound, stripping a car to its base where quality matters considerably. That the twins punch above their weight is the best compliment I can think of. That they need greater compensation than the higher weight class to travel similar speeds is logical and not a slight to their achievement whatsoever. Again, for me its a feeling and I don't expect to feel as good because it's saving serious $ getting similar results, either price or details suffer. One thing I've learned modding the S2000 - keeping quality up is a direct function of money. Creating automotive harmony is pretty damn extensive and exponentially expensive.

Nothing but praise for both cars!

The 4.56/4.57 take 1st-4th to exactly AP2 gearing. Your 5th and 6th will be shorter than a AP2, but relative gearing is still taller. It's the best of both worlds, IMO.

Unless you have a specific circuit you want to run the car on, I don't really have a specific preference. a 4.3 takes your relative gearing to be identical to the FRS/BRZ for 1st-5th.

Funny how those numbers work out, isn't it?

With FI, you may find yourself wanting a 3.9 or 3.7 FD.

[yuqian7718]

I got s2k before, with heavy modified, 400hp with turbo, lots of work on that one, really fast and fun anywhere, but now I got a 2014 n/a brz with light modified, maybe I want to keep this one more stock, when u drive them, there is no big different between them, s2k got more power, the handling is almost the same, but u still can keep them both, I like them


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