Edelbrock E-force Owner's thread and FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by armstrom

I'm not saying 280WHP isn't a nice number. But when you consider the car is making ~420WHP at the same boost level on E85. That's a big gap for no increase i boost. To me that means the pump gas tune is leaving a LOT on the table just so it can survive the high compression ratio. I would rather have a car that makes mid 300s on pump and maybe high 300s on E85. Again, just a personal preference. Of course, E85 is nearly impossible to find near me so that might have some influence on what I would do with my own car
-Matt

Even with a lower CR, the limitation is the gasoline. You might get more timing, but you lose efficiency. You won't gain much if any power.

[Lantana frs]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Yep, that's pretty much my point. Clearly E85 is the superior fuel for making power. It lets you "squeeze the balloon at both ends" so to speak. But for many people the "compromise" of pump gas is all that is available to them. With a lower compression ratio you wouldn't have to sacrifice so much power to run on pump gas. Yes, you give up some of your maximum power potential when running on E85 but your power doesn't fall off a cliff just because you can't find corn juice somewhere. I mean, at some point when does E85 become a compromise? If I could just run on pure alcohol I could squeeze out even more power, or how about nitromethane? At some point everything is a compromise.

I agree. What good is a high cr if the available fuels have the knock sensors working overtime? Imo the high compression was chosen for emissions and fuel efficiency.

[tshrey]

Or he wants the car to have nuts down low...

There is this constant assumption that E85 is 'spotty at best'. Where I'm at I have half a dozen stations to get E85 at within the area that I normally drive on a day to day basis. High compression with E85 sounds awesome to me, you would always be in the power band.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by armstrom

or how about nitromethane?

There is an article GRM did a few years back comparing different fuels and power potential......unfortunately on a low compression early Miata.

However, the important part to note was something like Methanol or Nitro will make more power.

But instead of say 30% more with Ethanol vs gasoline......you're going to need roughly 250% more Methanol vs gasoline. And this ignores how dangerous and volatile it is compared to gasoline.

Talk about needing to tow a 100 gallon tank of fuel behind you.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

Imo the high compression was chosen for emissions and fuel efficiency.

If we're talking about the stock high compression it was necessary to hit 200 hp and emissions and fuel efficiency. In order to hit emissions and fuel economy without high compression and DI they would have ended up with ~160hp, the high CR and DI allows them to get more power out of a limited amount of fuel.

I just find the story super interesting so I link it when I can, it's not often you get this level of insight into car development.
http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-to...eated-the-gt86

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

I agree. What good is a high cr if the available fuels have the knock sensors working overtime? Imo the high compression was chosen for emissions and fuel efficiency.

The knock sensor is *not* working overtime if your tune is not knocking to begin with.

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

I agree. What good is a high cr if the available fuels have the knock sensors working overtime? Imo the high compression was chosen for emissions and fuel efficiency.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If we're talking about the stock high compression it was necessary to hit 200 hp and emissions and fuel efficiency. In order to hit emissions and fuel economy without high compression and DI they would have ended up with ~160hp, the high CR and DI allows them to get more power out of a limited amount of fuel.

Or simply put, running as high of a compression as an engine allows is the best thing for an engine. The only downside is the limitation it imposes on aftermarket forced induction.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by gtengr

Or simply put, running as high of a compression as an engine allows is the best thing for an engine. The only downside is the limitation it imposes on aftermarket forced induction.

If you had told me when I bought the car that the FA20 with 12.5:1 compression ratio could take bolt on forced induction with a 50% increase in power reliably I would have laughed in disbelief.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If you had told me when I bought the car that the FA20 with 12.5:1 compression ratio could take bolt on forced induction with a 50% increase in power reliably I would have laughed in disbelief.

That's a 50% increase reliably on Cali 91...lol it's taking 90-100% increase reliably on E85.

Jaden

p.s. it's at close to 200bhp/liter on E85

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Jaden

p.s. it's at close to 200bhp/liter on E85

I think once you hit that point you're out of 'bolt-on' territory with a flex fuel kit, smaller pulley, custom tune, etc. and long term reliability is up in the air imo but to each their own. The point is the little FA20 is pretty remarkable.

[Bluman]

Well... I may have to cancel my order at JEGs. They're now telling me that the kit is backordered through at least mid-August. There goes being able to simply pick it up at a storefront. I suppose I'll have to ask, if I can get it shipped our dock at work.

Would be nice, if I could email somebody at Edelbrock for more information. I really don't like dealing with such things over the phone.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

There is an article GRM did a few years back comparing different fuels and power potential......unfortunately on a low compression early Miata.

However, the important part to note was something like Methanol or Nitro will make more power.

But instead of say 30% more with Ethanol vs gasoline......you're going to need roughly 250% more Methanol vs gasoline. And this ignores how dangerous and volatile it is compared to gasoline.

Talk about needing to tow a 100 gallon tank of fuel behind you.

Neither ethanol nor methanol is more dangerous than gasoline. What matters is the lower explosive limit: the lowest air fuel ratio at which the fuel and air mixture will explode. Next it is the energy content of the fuel, which is highest in gasoline of the three you mention.

Methanol was used at Indy specifically because it is safer than gasoline.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

I agree. What good is a high cr if the available fuels have the knock sensors working overtime? Imo the high compression was chosen for emissions and fuel efficiency.

The knock sensors don't care. They have no moving parts. What may matter is borderline detonation which knock sensors have to permit in order to have sometung to sense.

Road engine manufacturers select the compression ratio primarily for the fuel they expect their customers to agree to pay for. In North America most customers won't pay for anything but regular which is 87. In Europe the lowest octane you can normally buy is 91, that's their regular. Their premium is 95 generally.

Only high compression using high octane fuel delivers best fuel economy. Compression ratio is selected first for fuel price in North America, not fuel economy.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Bluman

Well... I may have to cancel my order at JEGs. They're now telling me that the kit is backordered through at least mid-August. There goes being able to simply pick it up at a storefront. I suppose I'll have to ask, if I can get it shipped our dock at work.

Would be nice, if I could email somebody at Edelbrock for more information. I really don't like dealing with such things over the phone.

Did you miss the last batch of kits from CSG? Quite a few kits have come through recently...