What can the BRZ/86 outhandle?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Totally agree with your definition of handling, but I think the gap on that attribute between the hot hatches and the RWD sports cars may be starting to close, based on all the recent reviews of 2 new models just hitting Europe now--the Fiesta ST and the Mk7 GTI equipped with the new optional LSD. Those two in particular are reported to have banished understeer from the FWD lexicon, can be rotated in-corner by the pedals alone, banish torque steer, leave their predecessors in the proverbial dust, and are a blast to drive. They are certainly getting close enough to the twins to be worth comparative drives before writing the big cheque.

I haven't driven the Fiesta ST or mk7 GTI with performance pack, so I can't really say until they get here.

The mk7 GTI w/PP in particular looks promising though. VW is saying all the right things: electronically-controlled LSD, lower height and CG than mk6, lighter weight than mk6, etc. But will it be enough to make it handle comparably to an FR-S? No idea. It's a tall order though, as the gap is quite large currently.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by forzajuve

Well we know that the FRS and BRZ handles as well as a Porsche Cayman. Pretty good place to start.

Sorry, but no it doesn't. It's good, but it isn't that good.

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Sorry, but no it doesn't. It's good, but it isn't that good.

At the last autocross event that I competed in, there was a bone stock Cayman S. I was only .6 seconds off his best run on stock tires. Neither of us are "newbies".

Interpret that however you like.

Scott

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Sorry, but no it doesn't. It's good, but it isn't that good.

Agreed. Owning the Boxster Spyder and test driven the FR-S what I can say is that the FR-S feels similar but just not as good in every way.

From the driving feel perspective with all the weight in the middle on the boxster or cayman it just turns better. Just like rotating the dumbbell with 5lbs on the end is much harder than rotating without the weight on the end and placing the 10lbs on middle of the handle.

I love the FRS and still considering buying one. The driving feel and fun factor is all there and I respect driving feel over anything else. That is the reason I still drive my Evo IX MR.

Other than the Evo, Miata I don't know if anything else comes close in terms of driving feel other than moving up in $ to the Porsches or supercars. Yes limits are proportion to the cost but driving the FR-S give you the feel of a Porsche without the cost. A+. Love the car and still consider buying one.

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

At the last autocross event that I competed in, there was a bone stock Cayman S. I was only .6 seconds off his best run on stock tires. Neither of us are "newbies".

Interpret that however you like.

Scott

I was considering buying one for auto cross. Would you recommend auto or manual. The longer gearing on the AT may help? Tire suggestions ?

[D4S]

Some top gear should help.

[thill]

Originally Posted by lazyluka

Handling and Grip (Road holding) are two different things and people often confuse the two.

Our car's can HANDLE, they just lack grip on factory tyres.

Correct, and the Primacy tires were no accident. The engineers wanted tires that were easier to break traction and drift with. They clearly went with more fun factor versus less grip. In multiple tests conducted by multiple third party sources, just swapping out the tires resulted in better lap times, better figure 8 times, better lateral acceleration, etc.

If someone is looking for better grip, they need only switch the tires.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

At the last autocross event that I competed in, there was a bone stock Cayman S. I was only .6 seconds off his best run on stock tires. Neither of us are "newbies".

Interpret that however you like.

Scott

It's honestly kind of hard to compare them on the basis of track time - the cayman will pretty much always be faster on a given track, but it's also higher horsepower (substantially), and the driver was different as well (regardless of experience level). However, I was mostly referring to driving feel with my last post. Having test driven a BRZ extensively when I was in the market (and owning a Cayman now), the Cayman steering is more solid feeling and communicative, and the car always feels ready to respond, almost as if it were reading your mind and predicting your next move.

Again, I'm not saying the BRZ is bad - it's an amazing car and I'm a huge fan (which is why I'm here, obviously), but the Cayman's handling is better in pretty much every way, at least subjectively (with one disappointing exception in my case - the older Caymans, mine included, suffer a bit for lack of a decent LSD, which can be problematic when trying to put down power out of a low speed corner. The newer ones with PTV have solved this problem though).

[Kenno]

Stating the obvious here, but the 86/BRZ will out handle sweet f#%k all if you're a shit driver.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Kenno

Stating the obvious here, but the 86/BRZ will out handle sweet f#%k all if you're a shit driver.

Well, that's true with any car

[DAEMANO]

Outhandle?

According to MotorTrend the the Triplets are amongst the best driver's cars in the world. No mention of hot hatches with their front drive understeer and turbo lag. As @chaoskaze noted above, people often don't understand the difference of performance vs. handling and why the trips low COM, COG, weight, RWD, + weight distribution, suspension tuning and NA engine & price make it one of the finest cars produced in a generation. MotorTrend is no bible, but they make a great point that guys like Chris Harris, Clarkson, Probst, and more backup.

The 86 is so hard to fault that it's constantly compared to much more expensive cars (as in the MotorTrend article above), or v.s. used sports cars that cost thousands more when they were new. This is key because in a real world comparison test people rarely cross-shop cars that are $7k - $33k more expensive. Heck, put $10k into a base FRS and it would smoke any of these cars on the track (blower, tires, brakes).

2006 Porsche Cayman S $58,900 - 2013 adjusted $68,716
2011 Lotus Elise $39,985 - 2013 adjusted $43,669
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3 $32,960 - 2013 adjusted $34,527
2013 Nissan 370z $32,280
2009 Honda S2000 $34,995 - 2013 adjusted $38,219

The triplets ride on RWD sports car platform to be built out. A foundation to make either a track monster, show car, or something in between for very little money

***And another thing, this time power - The triplets FA20 is one of the highest specific output naturally aspirated engines in the world at 100bhp/liter. >link<
Porsche 911 GT3 RS4.0 - 125.1 bhp/L
Ferrari 458 Italia - 125.0 bhp/L
Lexus LFA - 115.1 bhp/L
Audi RS5 - 108.1 bhp/L
Lambo LP570-4 Superleggera - 108 bhp/L
FA20 Triplets - 100.0 bhp/L
</rant>

[sprintertrueno86]

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Outhandle?

According to MotorTrend the the Triplets are amongst the best driver's cars in the world. No mention of hot hatches with their front drive understeer and turbo lag. As @chaoskaze noted above, people often don't understand the difference of performance vs. handling and why the trips low COM, COG, weight, RWD, + weight distribution, suspension tuning and NA engine & price make it one of the finest cars produced in a generation. MotorTrend is no bible, but they make a great point that guys like Chris Harris, Clarkson, Probst, and more backup.

The 86 is so hard to fault that it's constantly compared to much more expensive cars (as in the MotorTrend article above), or v.s. used sports cars that cost thousands more when they were new. This is key because in a real world comparison test people rarely cross-shop cars that are $7k - $33k more expensive. Heck, put $10k into a base FRS and it would smoke any of these cars on the track (blower, tires, brakes).

2006 Porsche Cayman S $58,900 - 2013 adjusted $68,716
2011 Lotus Elise $39,985 - 2013 adjusted $43,669
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3 $32,960 - 2013 adjusted $34,527
2013 Nissan 370z $32,280
2009 Honda S2000 $34,995 - 2013 adjusted $38,219

The triplets ride on RWD sports car platform to be built out. A foundation to make either a track monster, show car, or something in between for very little money

***And another thing, this time power - The triplets FA20 is one of the highest specific output naturally aspirated engines in the world at 100bhp/liter. >link<
Porsche 911 GT3 RS4.0 - 125.1 bhp/L
Ferrari 458 Italia - 125.0 bhp/L
Lexus LFA - 115.1 bhp/L
Audi RS5 - 108.1 bhp/L
Lambo LP570-4 Superleggera - 108 bhp/L
FA20 Triplets - 100.0 bhp/L
</rant>

its a good car but thats a little bit fan boyish. the engine is pretty far forward in the engine bay (due to the power steering i think) so its weight distribution isnt what i would call "good" and then you also have the whole front strut thing which is less than ideal. combine that with the reliability/trackability has yet to be seen (or if it has been seen its just out there blowing up motors) and i dont know if i would call the thing a track monster just yet. its a neat car in which i think the sum is greater than the parts but its not hard to find faults.

[forzajuve]

I Disagree. Thanks for your input though.