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Old 04-09-2013, 10:50 AM   #1
Chad_W
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Confusion about front sound stage

I see many examples of people using high end 6.5 component sets and drop the tweeter in the factory midrange location.

I may be old school, but I think this violates four rules:

1. Tweeter is too far away from woofer (possible cancellations around x-over point)

2. Tweeter is off-axis with woofer (cancellations/phase issues)

3. Tweeter is reflecting off windshield (reflections change response curve)

4. Tweeter is off-axis with listener (higher frequency details are lost)

Yet I see people putting some very expensive equipment in this location and being very happy with the results.

Can anyone explain to me why that is?

Would placing the tweeters in the a-pillars and aiming across to the driver and passenger yield much better results?
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:22 PM   #2
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You will find most people either don't care about staging or don't know whats wrong or right. With DSP tho, all of the things you mentioned can be fixed or at-least made much better.

I do think that with some tuning using a 2 way set with the tweeter in the oem spot is fine for 85% of the people on this forum tho.

As for A-pillar placement, yes it is much better results. You can see my build for one example of that.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:00 PM   #3
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Definitely love your build.

I'm going super minimal list on mine, under $300 for the whole system, so a $300 DSP to fix bad placement is out of the question.

I definitely see why you picked the A pillar for you build. If you were doing 2 ways, would you still go with the A pillar for the tweeter?
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:04 PM   #4
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it really depends on what speaker you will be using. i dont recommend using a cheap speaker in that location. higher end speaker companies like focal build there speakers to work well off axis and have built in wave guides and difusers to help with this problem. not mention inverted domes tweeters and complex crossover networks with a vast array of adjustments. the down side is the staging will be very right to left, but for most people they dont really understand imaging and are fine with it. for those people we use a 30 band eq and use are real time analyzer or rta to get rid of any reflections or bumps in frequencies coming off the glass or any other object in the car. this helps smooth the response and make the car flat as possible. without an eq or an rta its going to be tough to get rid of any reflections.using a dsp with eq and time alignment is always best but not always cheap. check out www.thecarstereoguys.com and see a multitude of speakers mounts like pillar and dash.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4459829&type=3

this isnt cheap but shows options
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad_W View Post
Definitely love your build.

I'm going super minimal list on mine, under $300 for the whole system, so a $300 DSP to fix bad placement is out of the question.

I definitely see why you picked the A pillar for you build. If you were doing 2 ways, would you still go with the A pillar for the tweeter?
Probably so, And you could always get a Minidsp. Its 100$.

When I find time Im gonna put some low, and mid priced components in the oem spots to see how they do with full tuning avail.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by carstereoguys View Post
it really depends on what speaker you will be using. i dont recommend using a cheap speaker in that location. .....this isnt cheap but shows options
I've always been told speaker location is as important if no more critical than quality.

I'm using a set of older Boston Components. I'm being careful not to compare what I want to do with other speakers that are available, but with the OEM system that I'm looking to upgrade from. I know that this sub $100 component pair can sound much better than the factory, but I'm also trying to get the most out of them by choosing optimal mounting

Last edited by Chad_W; 04-09-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:42 PM   #7
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MiniDSP for $100 isn't going to break the budget or my space/weight goals...I'll have to look into that and the feasibility of feeding a speaker level output to that system
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:12 PM   #8
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thats true when using cheaper equipment for sure. there is more room to play with better engineered speakers. you may want to hook them up, then place them in different spots and find what you like the best. you may be surprised on what you find by trying different angles and spots.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:19 PM   #9
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install and tuning >>>>> expensive drivers. Physics are physics. You can get lower distortion, more output, better power handling, and even better off axis response from better drivers, but there is a definite limit to what you can fix by spending more. Once the sound leaves the cone, it's on it's own and a car is a nasty place to be for an innocent little soundwave. Lots of glass and hard plastics to run into, inherently poor driver placement, hugely compromised listening position.

Taking these things into account when designing the build can make $80 worth of drivers outperform $400 worth. Failing to do so can mean wasting a whole lot of money on a very mediocre sounding system.

Cheers
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Chad_W View Post
MiniDSP for $100 isn't going to break the budget or my space/weight goals...I'll have to look into that and the feasibility of feeding a speaker level output to that system
TBH I have brand new I was gonna use for a project but never got around to it. Id let you have it for half new price plus shipping, just send me a pm if you want it.

As for your components. I think you will be fine to use those. Just start with the tweeter in the oem spot, if it doesn't work out then do some pillars or something then. I mean you already have the gear so why not use it.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:13 PM   #11
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Don't take it the wrong way... but if you're not a registered vendor, please stop advertising in our forums. If you're going to make money off of us, support us.

That aside, RTA + EQ + time align is indeed the correct answer. Driver positioning is still relevant, since the setup needs to sound good away from the microphone position used during tuning. Driver selection is relevant to support the positioning (on-axis vs off-axis). Doesn't have to be expensive, just correct for the application.

It takes alot of time/effort to develop an SQ system that sounds good throughout the car. Even experienced guys will require some time to learn a new car.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad_W View Post
I see many examples of people using high end 6.5 component sets and drop the tweeter in the factory midrange location.

I may be old school, but I think this violates four rules:

1. Tweeter is too far away from woofer (possible cancellations around x-over point)

2. Tweeter is off-axis with woofer (cancellations/phase issues)

3. Tweeter is reflecting off windshield (reflections change response curve)

4. Tweeter is off-axis with listener (higher frequency details are lost)

Yet I see people putting some very expensive equipment in this location and being very happy with the results.

Can anyone explain to me why that is?

Would placing the tweeters in the a-pillars and aiming across to the driver and passenger yield much better results?
You're exactly right on all four points, typically.

I too am amazed at how much money some folk spend poorly installing speakers!

I think most of it comes down to knowledge. Secondly as previously mentioned, 85% of people are happy with 'louder' and 'clearer' and 'bassier'.

Staging, dynamics, definition, emotion doesn't really come into it for the majority of car owners, or even car audio fans.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:50 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carstereoguys View Post
it really depends on what speaker you will be using. i dont recommend using a cheap speaker in that location. higher end speaker companies like focal build there speakers to work well off axis and have built in wave guides and difusers to help with this problem. not mention inverted domes tweeters and complex crossover networks with a vast array of adjustments. the down side is the staging will be very right to left, but for most people they dont really understand imaging and are fine with it. for those people we use a 30 band eq and use are real time analyzer or rta to get rid of any reflections or bumps in frequencies coming off the glass or any other object in the car. this helps smooth the response and make the car flat as possible. without an eq or an rta its going to be tough to get rid of any reflections.using a dsp with eq and time alignment is always best but not always cheap. check out www.thecarstereoguys.com and see a multitude of speakers mounts like pillar and dash.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4459829&type=3

this isnt cheap but shows options
I saw you working on that build! I passed by in my white BRZ and waved. Would love to check it out sometime if it's still in your shop!
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:05 AM   #14
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I've never been a huge fan of having tweeters a long way from the mid-bass. That's why I'm going to try 3.5" widebands in the dashboard. Some of really good ones can be run tweeter-less. With a decent DSP and deadening, I should be able to get very respectable sound. If not, I can always try various tweeter configurations including custom pods.
There's lots of options but the general concensus is that you can get pretty decent sound from the factory locations in these cars.
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