2020 Toyota GR Supra Revealed!

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I've owned a BMW. I don't care what it's short term reliability is. The company makes nothing but overengineered and poorly implemented shitboxes. Sorry.

And I can take off my hood for cooling too, doesn't mean I needed a fake vent there to do so

I guess I'll just agree to disagree with the fans.. but I won't buy one of these turds.

I find the irony of your post funny.

Calling BMW shitboxes while owning and driving a Chevrolet Camaro the least reliable model from a brand with shit reliability to begin with.

BMW is reliable and the b58 is a strong engine those are just facts not personal opinions like what you stated.

As a previous owner of a brand new 2015 c7 z51 Corvette I had to have the oil sump replaced in less than 1 year because of a leak. Shit reliability.

One year in on my BMW with a tune and many other mods not a single issue and I beat the crap out of this car.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Theres a thread somewhere that disproves the "Subaru made the twins" misconception. Its like an actual 50% split between them in terms of actual work provided by each company. Pretty interesting actually, but I guess from the outside it would appear that Subaru did the grunt work.

What surprised me is that the twins are considered the most reliable vehicle for both? I thought the Twins was more unreliable than the typical Toyota/Subaru.....unless that's just its build quality feels less because of all the supposed squeaks and rattles and random noises.

So you're saying that BRZs were produced/assembled in one factory and FR-S's/86's were produced/assembled in another factory? I.E. mechanicals. If so I didn't know that, thought from a mechanical perspective the whole drivetrain/car under the body was produced in one place.

I'm also surprised that both cars were top for reliability ratings, especially for Toyota considering reputation of it's other cars (Camry, Corolla, Highlander, Rav4, Land Cruiser, all legendary for reliability). Reading through here you'd think we're playing russian roulette every time we start our cars lol.

[Dadhawk]

Since the chart below is from Consumer Reports, I thought it would be useful to see how they get the ratings. Basically its data submitted by their subscribers when surveyed. so in the end, to me, this is like a lot of reliability studies, its "perceived reliability" rather than based on actual documented failures, repairs, etc. Still probably relatively accurate but I find it hard to believe there is a near 60 point difference between the top and the bottom of the scale (whatever a "point" means).

But then, since the most reliable car of the most reliable brand is the one I own, I guess I'm good!


https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...liability-faq/

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Is Toyota better? Yes. Is it not even close? No.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Again, not everyone need those vents to be functional. Maybe 1%~2% will use those vents. Why bother making it functional when it’s won’t be needed for daily drivers?

I'm sorry, this may be your opinion but its a cop out. You're basically saying only 1-2% if the buyers will care about drag reduction on the highway or care about reducing brake fade on a halo sports car. Or reducing lift/drag on a car capable of high speeds. We aren't talking about feature such as an oil cooler where, yes possibly only 1-2% of buyers will ever need, we're talking about features that benefit all users on a day to day usage, that I would assume cost very little R&D to implement (in the grand scheme of things).



Basically his response was marketing covering for features that the design department pushed through, and the engineers were too lazy or had no budget to cover.



Take a look at modern BMW and Audi vehicles, most of them have very clever usage of vents and ducting in the front for aero/cooling purposes. they don't just have random slats sliced in the side of the car and blanked for no reason.



Note: I acknowledge this is a bit of a rant of the state of automotive design in general and the Supra is just taking the brunt of my frustration.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Is Toyota better? Yes. Is it not even close? No.

That's a weird breakdown by using series vs actual models. But that's better than I expected but again, what's the timeline for that? Most cars are pretty good short term now.. it's when they get 5-10 years old that they turn into total shitboxes in my experience. Working on them sucks balls too, but I guess the timing chain location on the B58 makes that pretty obvious already right? lol

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This is the sort of stuff that bugs me. You can't even pretend that there would be a purpose there..

haha yeah the back is full of fake vents. At least the front ones are generally functional.. but that rear end is something else.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

I find the irony of your post funny.

Calling BMW shitboxes while owning and driving a Chevrolet Camaro the least reliable model from a brand with shit reliability to begin with.

BMW is reliable and the b58 is a strong engine those are just facts not personal opinions like what you stated.

As a previous owner of a brand new 2015 c7 z51 Corvette I had to have the oil sump replaced in less than 1 year because of a leak. Shit reliability.

One year in on my BMW with a tune and many other mods not a single issue and I beat the crap out of this car.

I never posted that Chevy was reliable. I have the car because it's stupid fast on track and is an absolute blast to drive. Also, it's simple and easy to work on, unlike a BMW.

Before that I had a Focus too, Ford's worst model. Although mine was a German Focus.. and Focus has a bad name because of their absolutely TERRIBLE DCT.

Although, GM's A8 is a big cause of their reliability issues either.. but automatic so I don't care

I probably beat my Camaro worse than you do your BMW.. it's also been problem free so I guess there are reliable examples of everything!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Since the chart below is from Consumer Reports, I thought it would be useful to see how they get the ratings. Basically its data submitted by their subscribers when surveyed. so in the end, to me, this is like a lot of reliability studies, its "perceived reliability" rather than based on actual documented failures, repairs, etc. Still probably relatively accurate but I find it hard to believe there is a near 60 point difference between the top and the bottom of the scale (whatever a "point" means).

But then, since the most reliable car of the most reliable brand is the one I own, I guess I'm good!

I wasn't going to go down this path but.. what someone considers unreliable is often a nuisance and not an actual failure anyways. Certain brands do have major issues with specific components but often those are avoidable (transmission selection, etc)

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Since the chart below is from Consumer Reports, I thought it would be useful to see how they get the ratings. Basically its data submitted by their subscribers when surveyed. so in the end, to me, this is like a lot of reliability studies, its "perceived reliability" rather than based on actual documented failures, repairs, etc. Still probably relatively accurate but I find it hard to believe there is a near 60 point difference between the top and the bottom of the scale (whatever a "point" means).

But then, since the most reliable car of the most reliable brand is the one I own, I guess I'm good!

Yep. Any reliability ratings are questionable. The data is everything and since the companies themselves will not release warranty info (even when good news) then we have to rely on people's reports.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

That's a weird breakdown by using series vs actual models. But that's better than I expected but again, what's the timeline for that? Most cars are pretty good short term now.. it's when they get 5-10 years old that they turn into total shitboxes in my experience. Working on them sucks balls too, but I guess the timing chain location on the B58 makes that pretty obvious already right? lol

2018 report based upon the 3 prior years. Yes long term can change.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...As a previous owner of a brand new 2015 c7 z51 Corvette I had to have the oil sump replaced in less than 1 year because of a leak. Shit reliability....

Having to have one part replaced = "shit reliability"? Seems extreme but I'm sure there is more to the story.

I've owned multiple GM products. 2 of them have had almost 300,000miles put on them and 2 were well over 100,000 miles. None of them had more than $2,000 of non-maintenance work done on them in their life and with the exception of one that lost a motor bearing at 280,000 miles, were still driving when I sold them.

Then again, I seem to have good luck with cars and trucks.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I wasn't going to go down this path but.. what someone considers unreliable is often a nuisance and not an actual failure anyways. Certain brands do have major issues with specific components but often those are avoidable (transmission selection, etc)

Yea, even the Consumer Reports FAQ indicates that "odd noise" is reported in the reliability.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, even the Consumer Reports FAQ indicates that "odd noise" is reported in the reliability.

Yeah back in 2013 the BRZ/FRS must have been the worse... all those HPFP replacements due to noise, poorly sealed taillights, etc.

Actually thinking back, my BRZ had more warranty work than any car I've ever owned. In 3 years it had at least 4-5 HPFP, 1 set of taillights, 1 transmission (6th gear whine) and HVAC controls IIRC.

Shit reliability

Like you though, my GM vehicles (3/4 ton trucks and the Camaro) have all been very solid.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

I'm sorry, this may be your opinion but its a cop out. You're basically saying only 1-2% if the buyers will care about drag reduction on the highway or care about reducing brake fade on a halo sports car. Or reducing lift/drag on a car capable of high speeds. We aren't talking about feature such as an oil cooler where, yes possibly only 1-2% of buyers will ever need, we're talking about features that benefit all users on a day to day usage, that I would assume cost very little R&D to implement (in the grand scheme of things).

Basically his response was marketing covering for features that the design department pushed through, and the engineers were too lazy or had no budget to cover.

Take a look at modern BMW and Audi vehicles, most of them have very clever usage of vents and ducting in the front for aero/cooling purposes. they don't just have random slats sliced in the side of the car and blanked for no reason.

Note: I acknowledge this is a bit of a rant of the state of automotive design in general and the Supra is just taking the brunt of my frustration.

It's understandable rant... here's my view and lil bit of rant. Realistically speaking, ppl in general won't be looking at drag reduction when they look to buy the cars. If salesman tell me "You see this? This will reduce air lift and air drag by 9%!" I'll look at him/her like WTF? or Cool story bro. Full honesty, I don't believe in having brake air duct day to day. Not sure where you live that require brake air duct or other air duct to keep brake or reduce air drag. Where I live, in the winter time, it snows and salt everywhere. Why do I need to rust more suspension parts to reduce the brake temperature in daily drive? Before hitting the prime temperature, I'm already at work.

Hate when stock car having brake air duct. Their brake fades so bad that they need brake duct to keep it cool for daily use? I get that some 911 or M series (& so on) built for track focus... but when non-track focus having those question their reliability.

As for BMW and Audi having fake vents... it's very common. Example, Audi TTS front vents are non-functional. I don't remember BMW M4 fender vents to be functional either. Let's not go into Nissan, Subaru and other brands

TBH, I think we're so used to see some of the race car feature parts trickle down into daily car. Which some parts are great and all... but in the end, it's just extra swag that's cool in fans eyes, but not that functional in daily life.

That's just my 2yen

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

It's understandable rant... here's my view and lil bit of rant. Realistically speaking, ppl in general won't be looking at drag reduction when they look to buy the cars. If salesman tell me "You see this? This will reduce air lift and air drag by 9%!" I'll look at him/her like WTF? or Cool story bro. Full honesty, I don't believe in having brake air duct day to day. Not sure where you live that require brake air duct or other air duct to keep brake or reduce air drag. Where I live, in the winter time, it snows and salt everywhere. Why do I need to rust more suspension parts to reduce the brake temperature in daily drive? Before hitting the prime temperature, I'm already at work.

Hate when stock car having brake air duct. Their brake fades so bad that they need brake duct to keep it cool for daily use? I get that some 911 or M series (& so on) built for track focus... but when non-track focus having those question their reliability.

As for BMW and Audi having fake vents... it's very common. Example, Audi TTS front vents are non-functional. I don't remember BMW M4 fender vents to be functional either. Let's not go into Nissan, Subaru and other brands

TBH, I think we're so used to see some of the race car feature parts trickle down into daily car. Which some parts are great and all... but in the end, it's just extra swag that's cool in fans eyes, but not that functional in daily life.

That's just my 2yen

Almost all BMW's and Audi's have brake ducts (atleast from the base 3 and A4 up)


Spoilers/Aero elements are a big selling point and way to justify design. You honestly wouldn't care if a spoiler reduced drag and got you better gas mileage? You don't think gas mileage is a big selling point for the average consumer?


Also this a SUPRA. Toyota's HALO SPORTS CAR. Yes, brakes should be a priority. If the Germans care about it on their average bread and butter cars, you best believe Toyota should care about it on the Supra.


I'm sorry but this is just a bunch of excuses for poor design.



Over all the car is growing on me. I'm not too happy with what it is as a Supra replacement (I would buy a Corvette over this in a heartbeat), but I hope it sells well and encourages Toyota to stay in the performance market.