Header info for a newbie

[B-R-Z]

Moving the sensor(s) can void warranty items related to exhaust issues..?

A tune, if discovered, can probably void everything.

Plus, I'm not spending $500 to eliminate a cel. Not interested in few HP gained in the process.

[chimmy]

Ok, so I'm the moron Puerto Rican. Or whatever. I'm not even Puerto Rican.

I'm using a Borla UEL. And like B-R-Z, rumble, is what registers for me. 500 dollars for 10whp, does not. Got the UEL at a discounted used price, so I didn't exactly spend 600 dollars for rumble.

Using an o2 spacer, CEL with in 200 miles. P219A and whatever the other one is that is more common. Both CELs, everytime, no matter what insert I used for the spacer, small-medium-large-none. This doesn't always happen to everyone though. I know of a few here who will swear by a spacer. I can't tell you why it affects some and doesn't others, because I don't know.

Leaving CEL on, MPG and performance, took a nose dive. Went from 29-31 consistently, to 24-25 at best.

What got me, is that on the factory manifold, the primary o2 is sitting in the collector getting readings from all cylinders, where as, on every aftermarket header, it sits in a runner coming off one cylinder. I don't know why its like this, or its benefit. I'm no fucking engineer, and I won't pretend to be a fucking keyboard engineer either.

So, my solution, was buying a 10 dollar o2 bung that came with a plug. Put the plug in the primary o2 spot. Installed primary o2 in to the secondary o2 spot [so now, it will get AF readings from all cylinders, instead of just one]. Took the 10 dollar bung, and welded it myself to the factory front pipe, after the secondary cat. The secondary o2, will now read AF coming out of the very first cat in the exhaust system. Just like from factory. Wow. Such science.

6k miles driven, not a single blip in performance, MPG averaging in 30.x consistently with normal driving and occasional WOT. Above all else, no CEL.

Yet.

I won't say it will work forever, but it works for now, and works a lot better for me than a spacer did. Throw as much hate on me as you want, whatever, its working. Other people happy to drop 500 for a tune to get the 'MOST' out of your UEL, good for you, I won't go in to your threads and call you stupid for doing it. Nor do I think you are stupid for doing it. People want what they want, I wanted rumble with no CEL without dropping an extra 500 on a tune. And thats what I got.

And I've already explained to B-R-Z that because its working for me, doesn't mean it will for him or anyone. Just the same way that a spacer doesn't seem to work for everyone either.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by B-R-Z

Moving the sensor(s) can void warranty items related to exhaust issues..?

A tune, if discovered, can probably void everything.

Plus, I'm not spending $500 to eliminate a cel. Not interested in few HP gained in the process.

Nothing voids a warranty completely. Any modification that isn't OEM can result in a warranty claim denial. The dealer can't deny a warranty for your air conditioner going bad if you have an ECU tune or an aftermarket header. To that effect, a tune does not void everything.

Messing around with the federally mandated emissions system, on the other hand, opens up the door for the dealer to give you a whole lot of headaches related to engine or exhaust. This isn't necessarily just from moving the sensor, merely installing an aftermarket header has already brought you down that path - you messed with the emissions system already, anything else at this point is academic.

Your dealer won't discover a tune. Subaru/Toyota, on the other hand, yeah they can, but you'd have to give them a pretty good reason to be doing that forensic work on the ECU to be looking for it, and anything that gives them reason to be doing that work would have already given them reason to look at your aftermarket header and tampering of the emissions system to call you out on that - the ECU tune is irrelevant at that point as you've already given them plenty of reason to deny warranty work.

If you don't want to spend any money, and you want to be in a position where you can put the system back to stock for warranty work, just ignore the CEL if you get it. Anything else that you're talking about doing will perform just as much warranty damage as the tune, and doing so in a very visible way.

On the other hand, if you really don't care about the warranty, then yeah - go for relocating the sensors. I suspect you'll be fine, but as sensitive as this car is to messing with the sensors, it's anybody's guess until you do it. Be sure to give us an update on how it works out. Good luck!

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by chimmy

Throw as much hate on me as you want, whatever, its working. Other people happy to drop 500 for a tune to get the 'MOST' out of your UEL, good for you, I won't go in to your threads and call you stupid for doing it. Nor do I think you are stupid for doing it. People want what they want, I wanted rumble with no CEL without dropping an extra 500 on a tune. And thats what I got.

Hey man, that's great that it works for you - I'm not sure what thread you're referring to that people went into it to attack you personally, but I'm sorry you had to go through that - there are a lot of internet tough guys out there and will take every opportunity to attack someone simply for disagreeing with them.

That all said, did you have any trouble at all with the angle of the sensor when you welded the new bung behind the secondary? I heard there were some issues with getting that angle just right to avoid CEL.

[B-R-Z]

I get that you are pro-tune, but I am not. I personally think you can have more headaches when a dealer discovers a modified ecu versus a relocated sensor. If you can prove otherwise besides your personal beliefs then show me some documentation.

[chimmy]

Originally Posted by Foobar

That all said, did you have any trouble at all with the angle of the sensor when you welded the new bung behind the secondary? I heard there were some issues with getting that angle just right to avoid CEL.

Never heard of that. But it's in at a direct 90 deg angle. Atleast, close enough to it.

[Akari]

Originally Posted by B-R-Z

I get that you are pro-tune, but I am not. I personally think you can have more headaches when a dealer discovers a modified ecu versus a relocated sensor. If you can prove otherwise besides your personal beliefs then show me some documentation.

The dealer cannot see a modified tune, not to mention you can set it back to the original in minutes. They would need to send your ecu off to a computer forensics team which let's be honest will never happen for a warranty claim.

The dealer can however see your modified wiring and O2 placement then deny you any warranty work related to the engine, emissions and exhaust systems.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by B-R-Z

I get that you are pro-tune, but I am not. I personally think you can have more headaches when a dealer discovers a modified ecu versus a relocated sensor. If you can prove otherwise besides your personal beliefs then show me some documentation.

I cannot, but that works both ways of course - if you can show me a dealer giving people headache over a tune that they discovered, I'm all ears.

Anyway, I'm not pro-tune, I'm just discussing the options with you, that's what we're here for after all.

At the end of the day, you have your specific requirements, and relocation of the sensors meet them, but I've done everything I can to tell you that if warranty is your main driver here, you're already past that. Everything else is a personal opinion.

[chimmy]

Originally Posted by Akari

The dealer cannot see a modified tune, not to mention you can set it back to the original in minutes. They would need to send your ecu off to a computer forensics team which let's be honest will never happen for a warrenty claim.

The dealer can however see your modified wiring and O2 placement then deny you any warranty work related to the engine, emissions and exhaust systems.

Just as you would set a tune back in minutes, I could install my o2s back in original place with in minutes. I haven't chopped and spliced any wires. It's a simple plug-n-play harness extension. Though it requires a wrench and a jack/ramp.

[B-R-Z]

I also bought the extension harness so mine will be plug n play. The only evidence is a bung on front pipe, which I may have installed directly on top of pipe to make less noticeable.

Ok, my number #1 reason for not wanting a tune is $500+. It is not worth the cost to disable a CEL OR the bonus 10 HP achieved in the process. The dealer discovery is just a side effect I don't want to deal with.

Tune is out, let's talk cats

[Target70]

A bad tune is much more dangerous to the engine than any possible header you can put on the car. If we think about it logically, the exhaust is a pipe. Changing the header is mechanically no different than changing out a CBE. If all the AFR calculations are done with the first sensor, which is before the CAT, then the existence of a cat is a non issue, and can't be easily blamed for engine damage. Lots of people have warranty work with a catback installed and have no problems because it has no way of causing the engine to run in a self destructive manner. The header is not any different. However, If you make 1 small change to any of the hundreds of maps in the ecu, you can cause severely damaging conditions for the engine. I am not saying they will ever find out you flashed a tune, and I am definitely not saying any OTS tunes are dangerous to the engine, only that if done wrong, a tune has the potential to destroy just about everything due to running too hot, too rich, or too lean.

I just want others to take this into account. Dealers may still try to blame cats, and headers for any malfunction, but let's be real, changing a header or moving a cat efficiency sensor is only slightly more risky than painting the car a non OEM color.

I can't remember if B-R-Z has already installed the header and is getting the CEL, but based on his stated goals, If he hasn't yet, (although It doesn't work for everyone)I would have tried the defowler first before buying the bung and harness extension.

[B-R-Z]

Originally Posted by Target70

A bad tune is much more dangerous to the engine than any possible header you can put on the car. If we think about it logically, the exhaust is a pipe. Changing the header is mechanically no different than changing out a CBE. If all the AFR calculations are done with the first sensor, which is before the CAT, then the existence of a cat is a non issue, and can't be easily blamed for engine damage. Lots of people have warranty work with a catback installed and have no problems because it has no way of causing the engine to run in a self destructive manner. The header is not any different. However, If you make 1 small change to any of the hundreds of maps in the ecu, you can cause severely damaging conditions for the engine. I am not saying they will ever find out you flashed a tune, and I am definitely not saying any OTS tunes are dangerous to the engine, only that if done wrong, a tune has the potential to destroy just about everything due to running too hot, too rich, or too lean.

I just want others to take this into account. Dealers may still try to blame cats, and headers for any malfunction, but let's be real, changing a header or moving a cat efficiency sensor is only slightly more risky than painting the car a non OEM color.

I can't remember if B-R-Z has already installed the header and is getting the CEL, but based on his stated goals, If he hasn't yet, (although It doesn't work for everyone)I would have tried the defowler first before buying the bung and harness extension.

Exactly @Target70. A tune has the potential to be much more damaging than simply manipulating a sensor that is there only to detect the presence of a catalytic converter. Plus, $500 is way too much for a software flash--call me cheap. If I was boosted and a tune was required and was going to net me 50-100 hp, then that's a different story. Trying to choke miniscule pieces of NA power out of this motor is pointless IMO.

As far as I know, a dealer needs to be able to prove that any given mod caused the failure to what you are trying to have replaced under warranty. There is nothing that can be damaged by moving\defouling\extending the secondary o2 sensor if it has no other function than detecting a functioning cat.

My UEL header has been installed now for 1 week and 2 tanks of gas (7XX miles) and I do not yet have a CEL. I also have in-hand the o2 bung with plug and o2 sensor extension wire from Caspers Electronics. I just haven't had time to go to a shop to have the bung welded in place.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by Target70

I just want others to take this into account. Dealers may still try to blame cats, and headers for any malfunction, but let's be real, changing a header or moving a cat efficiency sensor is only slightly more risky than painting the car a non OEM color.

Agreed, logically, that makes sense, but we're talking about dealers here and tampering with the federally required emissions control system, which the CBE is not a part of, but headers are (due to the catalytic converter).

That's a big red flag for a dealer that isn't mod-friendly.

[B-R-Z]

Messing with emission output at the mufflers isn't affecting anything mechanical in the motor/car itself, you are just pissing off the government. If they deny a claim for me asking them to replace my secondary cat due to the absence of the primary cat then I would agree with them. But if I threw a rod or something and they tried to deny my claim I would fight with them for solid proof that moving an o2 sensor caused it to happen.