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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 08-29-2018, 08:27 AM   #15
86MLR
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Originally Posted by Spawn_Of_Creation View Post
Usually 304 headers fail because of bad welds, improper tunes or high boost overheating the metal, to much twist/play under acceleration, or so old they loose the noncorrosive properties.

Some other members have had headers crack and break because they use stock engine mounts on boosted applications.
Due to the inherited metallurgy of 304 it tends to work harden from heat cycling.

321 is much better IRT coping with heat cycling, as is mild steel.

This is based on my experience with both turbo and NA cars with alot of track abuse.

There are other variables, poor welds or not correctly supported turbos, but, even with all these issues engineered out during fabrication you cannot get past how 304 work hardens through heat cycing.

From the header back 304 is good to go IMO, but for headers I won't use it.

Options may vary.
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:16 AM   #16
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Don't over think this. There are plenty of reviews here to base your decision on. It's a cheap sports car, not the space shuttle.
Thinking is fun, free and often leads to better decisions.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:26 AM   #17
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Overthinking may lead to lost time and wrong decisions.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
Due to the inherited metallurgy of 304 it tends to work harden from heat cycling.

321 is much better IRT coping with heat cycling, as is mild steel.

This is based on my experience with both turbo and NA cars with alot of track abuse.

There are other variables, poor welds or not correctly supported turbos, but, even with all these issues engineered out during fabrication you cannot get past how 304 work hardens through heat cycing.

From the header back 304 is good to go IMO, but for headers I won't use it.

Options may vary.
The real issue with 304 Stainless in a header is inter-granular corrosion at elevated temperatures. This is a known and well documented issue. The high chromium content in 304 promotes chromium carbide precipitation at high temperature which depletes the chromium (the element that gives 304 it's anti-corrosion properties) and weakens the grain structure until failure.

Both 321 Stainless and 409 Stainless have a small amount of titanium added to the alloy to inhibit intergranular corrosion. 321 is more expensive because it also has nickel in addition to the titanium. Basically, if you want a header material that is pretty, will last longer and you're willing to pay the premium for it, get 321. Otherwise, 409 is a good way to go since it ultimately has a higher stiffness at high temps than 304 (yes, 304 is stiffer and stronger than 409 at lower temps). Naturally, mild steel doesn't have any chromium in it in the first place so there's no chromium carbide precipitation to happen...it'll just rust through since it has negligible corrosion resistance anyway so it has to have thicker walls to have the same life span as a 409 header.

All things being equal of course (good quality welds with the correct welding filler used, design considerations, etc. etc.).
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:24 PM   #19
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Toyobaru for EUDM decided that being Euro 6 compliant was more important then +5hp. IIRC they couldn't get new intake/exhaust/tune bits and still be Euro 6 compliant.
Are you sure the current EUDM car is even Euro 6 compliant, and Toyobaru didn't get an end of series exemption since this gen is on its way out? I dont think anything changed from Euro 5 to Euro 6 for passenger car petrol emissions limits that would have stopped them from using the updated engine if they had been ok with the certification costs. There are much more powerful cars running around that can meet that requirement so I dont see 5 hp on top of 200 being a significant hurdle.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:37 PM   #20
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EU kouki specifics are mostly caused by stricter emission standards. Toyobaru for EUDM decided that being Euro 6 compliant was more important then +5hp.
I checked once the documentation and there wasn't any difference between Euro 5 and Euro 6 on petrol engines. The difference was basically on diesel engines. Subaru had to make extensive changes to their Boxer diesel to get the Euro 6 certification. I believe that the kouki changes couldn't get even the Euro 5 certification. They just saw that they could approve them in certain markets and most importantly in US, they were tested successfully back in '14 in specific racing events and they decided to make it happen.
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:30 PM   #21
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gtengr: well, IF toyota.co.uk site doesn't lie, then i am sure.
From technical specs found there "Euro class: EURO 6 AG".
Hence - most probable reason for EUDM to not get FD/header/intake upgrades.
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:41 PM   #22
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They added a particulate number (PN) limit, but that's not going to be a significant barrier at 200 hp.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:25 PM   #23
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Run 93 on e85 tune and you'll have a diesel lol
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:47 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 View Post
Don't over think this. There are plenty of reviews here to base your decision on. It's a cheap sports car, not the space shuttle.
Pfff. So a cheap sports car with some basic changes won twice Renault's car that was build by their racing department. The same department is responsible for the Renault's F1 car. People should do some more research before they have an opinion and not base their reasoning mainly on how much they paid.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:50 PM   #25
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Many differences between pre/post 17 models outside EUDM, bigger air filter, better intake tube, improved aluminum intake manifold, bigger/better exhaust manifold, mapping etc, they all contribute to the power increase!
Of course they could achieve with other changes the same results for the EUDM models but the cost of R&D probably doesn't justify the minor power increase that would be only for the low sales European market.
By the way my EUDM MY18 says Euro 6+ on the approval.

Back to the question, so many exhaust manufacturers, suppliers, tuners out there, they did this job before you for you and they sure know more than what you know theoretical and empirical.
Just have a look at the dyno results from each different header and make your choice, don't overthink as previous say you won't discover the wheel...
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Pfff. So a cheap sports car with some basic changes won twice Renault's car that was build by their racing department. The same department is responsible for the Renault's F1 car. People should do some more research before they have an opinion and not base their reasoning mainly on how much they paid.
Jesus, don't over think this. It's a 200hp sports car.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:30 PM   #27
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In the time it takes to type a long winded, technically incorrect post on header design, you could order a header and tune and be done with it.
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Old 08-31-2018, 02:40 AM   #28
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Jesus, don't over think this. It's a 200hp sports car.
My point was that if you compare the car in same category and engine displacement you can't find anything much better. It is a well thought platform that's all. Same for racing. You cannot really compete different category cars. It doesn't make sense.


Even the torque dip, that so many are chasing as the "beast", is there in much more expensive offerings. Check here a brochure dyno from the last gen. Cayman:




The only mistake of 86/BRZ was to have a higher torque before the dip and thus the dip is felt more:



But it is a hard decision to lower the torque in the low range revs.


@JIM THEO The basic difference before and after the revision was on the exhaust manifold and the mapping. Better equal length design and diameter on the manifold was the reason. Maybe a bit also on the air filter, but you can use an aftermarket one. Catalog difference is 7PS and some were saying it is more and kept it lower to save some tax expenses. Many manufactures are doing this.
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