More confirmation from Toyota on next gen 86

[Tcoat]

Close enough = requirements met means that you met your goal

Close enough and we aren't at the goal but it is Friday at 4 and this is due Monday morning so we will just walk away and say were are done even though we are not where we should be but that is OK. Does NOT equal requirements met.
Automotive design is based upon meeting pre established goals and specifications not "this is all we have time for so we will change the goal to meet what we did"..

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

But they changed the engine wiring harness after the first year. And the valve stem length. And the window switches (smaller indexing). And the tail light gaskets. And the radio. And the kneepads. And that's just the stuff I can remember off the top of my head.

Don't forget the TSBs like the ECU calibration to not fry the DI seals.

They absolutely leave stuff on the table because it needs to be done Monday before OOB. That's why revisions are a thing in engineering. If it meets requirements it releases on the deadline.

I do agree that it's likely that a second gen will gain weight, but it might not. Guess I'm still optimistic about the possibilities. With this being an emotional car I expect the team to try harder that on let's say, the next Camry. But they again at enthusiasts we tend to skew things in favor of what we want to see.

Things come up when the car is in use. That does not mean they deliberately left those things wrong in the first place just to meet a schedule.

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

If the 86 was fully Toyota-developed it would never have made it to production. Toyota has no lightweight RWD chassis, no low packaging engine that fits, they have no car with suspension geometry that carries over.

Toyota cannot engineer and build this car from scratch for under 30k. The bulk of the miata's engineering was done for the NA, the ND engine is shared more than the old Miata motor to spread development cost and the chassis has been incrementally evolved over 3 decades, and STILL the Miata is more expensive.

Without Subaru they would have canned the project because it's not financially viable without an existing platform and hardware to adapt.

? Where did the platform come from, Subaru didn't have a existing RWD coupe.

It had to start somewhere, Hyundai was all FWD, then came the Stinger, is Toyota unable to keep up their engineering with Hyundai???

Toyota has done it before, MR2, Celica, all the early stuff.

They have the engines and the tech, they can source a gearbox easily.

They have Lexus parts bins.

Anyways, these are my perfect world musings where the car I want to own is built.

In the end it is a compromise

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Exactly. And weight requirements are the first ones to loosen up when schedule pressure rises.

You don't get a pass either. All the changes for which you expressed a desire take GOBS of money both in NRE and materials. Surely, you already knew that on some level.

[R_E_L]

I think the 2.4 option would be the best way to go as I don’t ever see turbo happening for us. Or better yet keep power the same but make it lighter, that would really be ideal. But again difficult because it would have to shrink in size (I don’t want that, size is perfect as is), or use more expensive lightweight materials, which raises the price (goes against the affordable sports car angle). Another, but probably the least likely option, would be to ditch the boxer engine and go for a traditional I4. Reduced complexity, weight, and hopefully a better oil delivery system (the real shortcoming of our engines IMO). But I don’t think Subaru would go for that, and this partnership is the only way we’ll ever see a second generation.

So up the displacement for a little more torque and power and hope the weight gain is minimal.




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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by R_E_L

I think the 2.4 option would be the best way to go as I don’t ever see turbo happening for us. Or better yet keep power the same but make it lighter, that would really be ideal. But again difficult because it would have to shrink in size (I don’t want that, size is perfect as is), or use more expensive lightweight materials, which raises the price (goes against the affordable sports car angle). Another, but probably the least likely option, would be to ditch the boxer engine and go for a traditional I4. Reduced complexity, weight, and hopefully a better oil delivery system (the real shortcoming of our engines IMO). But I don’t think Subaru would go for that, and this partnership is the only way we’ll ever see a second generation.

So up the displacement for a little more torque and power and hope the weight gain is minimal.



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If they were going to use an I4 they would have done that in the first place.
There is noting wrong with the boxer oil delivery system. The problem is with the act of gluing the engine together. Nobody with a post 13 has had any oil delivery issues.
Upping the displacement runs into the emissions and fuel issues that everybody like to ignore so much. No doubt both Toyota and Sbuaru would like to keep their fleet carbon credits for the vehicles they make money on.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You don't get a pass either. All the changes for which you expressed a desire take GOBS of money both in NRE and materials. Surely, you already knew that on some level.

Which was my point in the first place.
There is no "easy" shaving of 200 pounds off this car. Not at a cost that the consumers are willing to pay at any rate. Certainly not going to add a whole hybrid system for the same or slightly more price of the current car while taking off the weight to counter it. Pie in the sky dreaming to think it could happen.
Would love to see how many would put their money where their mouth is and go and buy a $45K second generation twin.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You don't get a pass either. All the changes for which you expressed a desire take GOBS of money both in NRE and materials. Surely, you already knew that on some level.

Of course it does. But updating the current chassis should be much cheaper than adapting the old WRX architecture back in 2009, and the engine is no longer brand new. This leaves money for other areas, assuming the 2nd gen will be considered for a similar development effort.

I understand the argument that they can just tweak the car again like for 2017, but as I understand the car already barely meets global emissions requirements. What are the most common ways to decrease emissions? Turbocharging decreases CO2 but increases NOx emissions and adds weight. Adding displacement decreases NOx but increases consumption and thus CO2. Hybridization decreases both CO2 and NOx but adds weight/cost. Shedding weight works too but it's very costly and not that effective. Did I miss any? None of these seem like a perfect solution but something has to give to make the next gen car pass global targets.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Of course it does. But updating the current chassis should be much cheaper than adapting the old WRX architecture back in 2009, and the engine is no longer brand new. This leaves money for other areas, assuming the 2nd gen will be considered for a similar development effort.

I understand the argument that they can just tweak the car again like for 2017, but as I understand the car already barely meets global emissions requirements. What are the most common ways to decrease emissions? Turbocharging decreases CO2 but increases NOx emissions and adds weight. Adding displacement decreases NOx but increases consumption and thus CO2. Hybridization decreases both CO2 and NOx but adds weight/cost. Shedding weight works too but it's very costly and not that effective. Did I miss any? None of these seem like a perfect solution but something has to give to make the next gen car pass global targets.

It is going to be a huge challenge for them to "upgrade" the car and meet everything they need too. If it is changed too much it will lose what it is and the first version will be a unicorn. If not enough then why bother upgrading since it will not attract buyers? They are in a tight space.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is going to be a huge challenge for them to "upgrade" the car and meet everything they need too. If it is changed too much it will lose what it is and the first version will be a unicorn. If not enough then why bother upgrading since it will not attract buyers? They are in a tight space.

Not to mention expectations from optimists like me lol.

This is kind of like Honda not being able to build a compelling S2000 these days. It's nice to see Toyota and Subaru think it's work trying with a 2nd gen.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

Not a Toybaru, a straight up Toyota.

I firmly believe that if the 86 was fully toyota it would have gone down in history like the MX5.

Lets see what's available in 2 years time?

Disclaimer: Whilst I am harsh with my critique I have enjoyed my experience with my 86.

I also acknowledge the reasoning of why Toyota and Subaru penny pinches thought it would be a good idea the collaborate to build a cheap sports car, it's just that I think it's a cop out.

At least the Zupra doesn't have a boxer.

I'm not directing this at you, but IME I find a lot of people too critical of the car. IMHO it's a godsend. I don't think we'll see another car like it. It a real throwback. What car manufacturer does that?

However, I can completely understand why people would want it all Toyota. I like the boxer engine and what it's done for the car Low COG and high RPM) I'm also excited to see future developments. I'm sure there will be plenty.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The problem is with the act of gluing the engine together.

...or a fuel probe.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Which was my point in the first place.

I know. I was just making sure everyone was on the same page.

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Did I miss any? None of these seem like a perfect solution but something has to give to make the next gen car pass global targets.

None missed by my count. VW had some creative solutions for their diesels.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

...or a fuel probe.


.

Is that thing still broken? That is what happens when you fly an EA-3 across the continent.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is going to be a huge challenge for them to "upgrade" the car and meet everything they need too. If it is changed too much it will lose what it is and the first version will be a unicorn. If not enough then why bother upgrading since it will not attract buyers? They are in a tight space.

It's what happens when the first gen is so kick-ass.