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Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing) Everything related to the mechanical maintenance of the FR-S and BRZ


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Old 08-04-2018, 06:34 PM   #15
gravitylover
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Which two oils are those with the lower cSt numbers?
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:07 PM   #16
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I gotta write a book but I need a real keyboard.

It's the confusing terminology. Basically, teh 0, 5, 20, etc are actual viscosity specs, but they are kind of inside out. It may be monday before I get to my laptop, but I will be back to elaborate.

Without an actual viscometer in hand, and without controlling for the nature of degradation that occurs, the "clean" or unused viscosity is a guide. The difference between 35 and 40 cSt may not be that much after a few hours of running.
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Old 08-05-2018, 03:41 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
Which two oils are those with the lower cSt numbers?

1) Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W20

2) Idemitsu Zepro Eco Medalist Advanced Moly 0W20 & Idemitsu Zepro Eco Medalist 0W20 [I essentially considered these two oils the same, one has a bit more moly emphasis and probably a bit of other differences]
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:21 AM   #18
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I gotta write a book but I need a real keyboard.

It's the confusing terminology. Basically, teh 0, 5, 20, etc are actual viscosity specs, but they are kind of inside out. It may be monday before I get to my laptop, but I will be back to elaborate.

Without an actual viscometer in hand, and without controlling for the nature of degradation that occurs, the "clean" or unused viscosity is a guide. The difference between 35 and 40 cSt may not be that much after a few hours of running.

I simply compared all the clean oil viscosity values of 0W20 oils. I don't have any interests in oils outside of 0W20 so I can stay per manual's specs, especially since my driving is at most a spirited canyon drive.


Yes clean/unused/virgin oil viscosity is merely a guide, but absolutely a great place to start (especially since that's all I have to work with and I'm too lazy to collect and compare used oils while standardizing for room conditions; full synthetic oils are also less prone to degradation). And yes, the temperatures aren't going to remain at 40C. But the rough starts are my primary concern because 1) all the 100C viscosity values of 0W20 oils are all about 8 cSt (thus similar viscosity at normal operating temps), 2) majority of engine wear is during the cold starts (or so I have read in various places), and 3) I'm making a general assumption that any good brand oil will provide sufficient engine protection at ideal operating/warmed up temperatures.


I also feel the difference for a 40C 35 cSt vs 45 cSt is quite significant - 28.6% greater (45/35). You should also consider that 40C is still very hot (104F).
Let say its 50F outside (10C), which isn't that cold. Chart the following viscosities: Idemitsu Zepro 0W20 40C - 34.9 cSt, 100c - 7.9 cSt vs Mobil1 0W20 40C - 44.8 cSt, 100c - 8.7 cSt.
Use this (or any other graphing calculator of your choice): https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
At 50F/10C, you're looking at a rough start of 120 cSt vs 180 cSt. That is 50% more viscosity at real morning temps (180/120). Of course, this is gap is even more severe if you live somewhere even colder. Say its 0C (32F) outside, you're looking at 200 cSt vs 320 cSt (60% - 320/200).
Now I know these graphs are theoretical calculations, but accurate enough to provide realistic expectations .. probably <5% deviation.



For someone like me, who does lots of short distance driving, I also want to provide the least strain on my engine when its cold. And my (edit: by*) least strain, I consider it to be the oil that provides the viscosity closest to full operating temperatures of ~8 cSt (based on manufacturer's suggested 0W20 and the average 0W20 oil viscosity at 100C of ~8 cSt).
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonburner View Post
1) Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W20

2) Idemitsu Zepro Eco Medalist Advanced Moly 0W20 & Idemitsu Zepro Eco Medalist 0W20 [I essentially considered these two oils the same, one has a bit more moly emphasis and probably a bit of other differences]
Sorry to ask for specifics now but, did your research give you data for Castrol Edge Extended? I've found my car to be happiest with this oil in the suggested 0W-20 weight, best mpg, easiest and quietest cold start and smoothest running on long road trips (which I do a lot of). This stuff https://www.castrol.com/en_us/united...motor-oil.html
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:24 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
Sorry to ask for specifics now but, did your research give you data for Castrol Edge Extended? I've found my car to be happiest with this oil in the suggested 0W-20 weight, best mpg, easiest and quietest cold start and smoothest running on long road trips (which I do a lot of). This stuff https://www.castrol.com/en_us/united...motor-oil.html

I looked at the Castrol Edge, not the Castrol Edge Extended. But I did look it up for you (all information is provided from manufacturers): 40C - 45.1 cSt & 100C - 8.7 cSt.


I've pretty much looked up every major brand oil manufacturer and 40C have averaged 451 cSt.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:57 AM   #21
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I've pretty much looked up every major brand oil manufacturer and 40C have averaged 451 cSt.
I hope so! That's what the first number in the spec means.

Anyway... So if an oil is 45cSt at 40C, it will change to some degree or another when the temp is ramped up or down. Again, that is a basic physical property of materials called VI.

The engine has two operating temps to be concerned with - ambient and running, so anywhere from -40C to +45C (for the Death Valley types), and then up around 105C. The SAE viscosties are measured to account for the extremes - -40C (or so, depending on grade) and 100C. Of course, they are measured differently, just for fun. FWIW, the W stands for "Winter", presumably the coldest condition the oil will see. However, for practical purposes, it means cold start.

The info from @Bonburner is solid because it informs us about the higher number, and that is the one that we typically care about, so long as the car starts - ie - we have gotten past the cold operating condition. Once we get up into the operating range, then we have to be concerned about how the oil varies in viscosity with higher temps. This is where things get mushy for us, because we are running outside of the 100C window.

Each spec (winter and summer) has a min 100C viscosity and the "summer" ones have max viscosities, too. This is important. That max viscosity imposes a limit on the viscosity index. However, the range is broad enough that it touches the next grade up.

more to come....
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:32 PM   #22
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Also, I just checked my.oil level today. Consumption is practically zero. With the 0W-20, my FRS was using/losing/burning one quart every 3k miles.
Makes me wonder if the engine was actually designed to use something thicker, like 5W-30 (which was so popular with carmakers 10years ago) but was ultimately specced with 0W-20 for fuel savings?
The Miata manual confesses, if you look closely, that the purpose of the lighter oil recommendation is for corporate fuel economy CAFE.

It's OK if you burn your motor out prematurely, as long as the company can meet government fuel standards.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:18 PM   #23
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The Miata manual confesses, if you look closely, that the purpose of the lighter oil recommendation is for corporate fuel economy CAFE.

It's OK if you burn your motor out prematurely, as long as the company can meet government fuel standards.
Sadly, I generally agree with this. That is why I am so interested to see a valid link to a ROW standard for heavier oil. If it exists, I will be all over it!
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:02 PM   #24
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I find this interesting @MrDinkleman because a few years ago, at 40k miles, I specifically remember hearing a vvt rattle, or some kind vibration and knocking sound when hovering at 3400 rpm in 3rd gear. It happened on only two occasions after leaving the highway from long trips and during normal cruising, and after that never happened again! Perhaps something wearing in like timing chain tensioners? Or perhaps AVCS doing some sort of "programmed systems testing" nearing the end of the drivetrain warranty? :thinking emoji"
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:24 AM   #25
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Interesting thoughts. When is valve adjustment called for?
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Qwimby1 View Post
The Miata manual confesses, if you look closely, that the purpose of the lighter oil recommendation is for corporate fuel economy CAFE.

It's OK if you burn your motor out prematurely, as long as the company can meet government fuel standards.

My 4runner was one of the first 5th gens off the line and the oil spec from the manual was 5w30. About 6 month later Toyota sent a letter out saying that the spec should be 0w20, for US trucks only, because that is what they used for EPA testing. The Canada/Mexico spec is still 5w30, and the letter states that you can still use it "only when 0w20 is not available"

The change interval is 10,000 miles and an analysis showed high iron in the oil. Living in a hot climate, I had no worries about changing to 5w30. It has solved the wear problem and any mpg loss is so tiny I could never measure it.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:59 AM   #27
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Just changed to Castrol 0W-30, we'll see how she does. I've had high iron and aluminum wear on the Toyota 0W-20.

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Old 08-24-2018, 12:46 PM   #28
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I'm a fan of 0w-30 personally, for daily driving.



The manual says the 0w-20 oil is spec'd to run at 73psi at 6000rpms at 176F. So I'm going to assume that's a reasonable target for pressure. However we know that these cars, even in daily driver, run the oil hotter than 176F so that means the pressure is often below the ideal pressure as stated in the manual if staying with the 0w-20.


YMMV.
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