BRZ vs Mustang - Here is the review the haters have been waiting for.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

apparently you have never been to a track before...
and dont know how tires can affect you lap times...

people post .5 seconds faster at least cold tires vs warmed up tires...
2-3 seconds faster crap tires vs r-comp...
since you are a number's guy

mustang(with base trim tires)
Lateral acceleration 0.88 g (avg)
MT figure eight 26.0 sec @ 0.67 g (avg)

FRS
Lateral acceleration 0.93 g (avg)
MT figure eight 25.9 sec @ 0.67 g (avg)

heres more numbers for you...

set of track package tires for mustang(the ones that are on the head 2 head video)
$1400

set of better tires for the brz that will probably post equal times to the mustang around streets of willow

$500

that means you can go to the track almost 3 times as many times with the brz vs mustang and post very very similar times

ok randy is a VERY good driver and the mustang isnt exactly the easiest car to drive fast, well not compared to the brz/frs/gt86 for that matter

around a track the brz wins collectively
1. cheaper to run(brakes,tires,less oil)
2. will post very similar times to the mustang with a proper set of tires....
3. all your tires,tools, jack will fit in the brz for a track day
4. better gas milage, you will run out of gas after the mustang does(important if you endurance race or if you live more than an hour from the track, making track days possible with 1 tank of gas...)
5. the car is more fun to drive(most important factor, to me at least)
6. no stupid 114 mph rev limiter that the mustang has
7. drive shaft wont explode on me like the mustangs($600 bucks you have to spend on top of the car as soon as you buy it, if you want to track it)
8. car weighs less, every performance part you add will get you more power
per lbs
9 the brz has a better manual and automatic transmission(both feel better too)
10 aftermarket support, the brz will have a more competitive aftermarket which means performance parts will have lower prices
11 cheaper to modify: 2 less pistons,2 less rods, 8 less valves, less rings,2 less rod bearings

all in all

built brz 36-37k ($500 for every tire change)
built frs 34-35k
built mustang 40-42k($1400 for every tire change)

I bolded a few things that are either untrue or you can't say for sure at the moment.

1) First thing is the V6 mustang actually gets better gas mileage than the FRS/BRZ
2)The limiter is removable and the driveshaft is very cheap to replace. If you're going to spend money then it's technically one of the cheapest highest performance yielding modifications you can make to the v6 stang. And truthfully unless you've got an ungodly long stretch on the track you won't be spending much time red lining it at 115 anyway.
3) HP isn't linear across all vehicles. Example, a full exhaust on the BRZ/FRS will net you less than it would on the stang. Reason being, not only does the BRZ/FRS already come with headers whereas the mustang doesn't, but for all we know you could see some considerable gains from the mustangs exhaust. (If there's one thing I've noticed about every Ford I've owned and modified it's that the name of the game with factory Fords is exhaust restriction )
4) Both aftermarkets will be huge. The mustang is an iconic vehicle with an incredibly large aftermarket, I have no doubt the BRZ/FRS will have a large aftermarket also. As for which one will be bigger, only time will tell.
5) You can't say for sure the FRS/BRZ will be cheaper to modify simply because it has two less cylinders. You're forgetting that Ford is a domestic brand, already giving it a cost advantage in America.
6) Last but not least, I'm not understanding where you got your "built cost" estimations from. Stock for stock the V6 and the BRZ are roughly the same price (track pack included), and just as a point of reference a Ford Racing Supercharger kit for the GT (I know it's not a V6 but hear me out) is $6k from FORD; meaning it's likely to be cheaper from Kenne or Jackson Racing. So I can't see a smaller blower or turbo costing equal or more than the GT. What I'm trying to say is I feel like you've exaggerated the modification costs of the V6. Domestics are notoriously cheap to modify, hell my brother built his old 10sec foxbody for under 5k.



Also, I don't get what's up with #3, the same thing is true for the stang (O.o).

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

1) First thing is the V6 mustang actually gets better gas mileage than the FRS/BRZ

EPA ratings for manual trans cars:
FR-S/BRZ = 22 city/30 hwy/25 combined
V6 Mustang = 19 city/29 hwy/ 22 combined

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

all in all

built brz 36-37k ($500 for every tire change)
built frs 34-35k
built mustang 40-42k($1400 for every tire change)

Wholly crap you don't like the Mustang. Great. Fine.
But where the hell are you pulling these numbers from?
Seriously, can you put it in a table or something. You've obviously gone top end and every last thing needed for the Mustang and gone cheapo tyres for the BRZ/FRS. It is simple enough to at least pick the same replacement tyres for them, that is a dead easy one to rationalise.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I bolded a few things that are either untrue or you can't say for sure at the moment.

1) First thing is the V6 mustang actually gets better gas mileage than the FRS/BRZ
mustang 19 city
brz 22 city
brz gets better gas milage...
2)The limiter is removable and the driveshaft is very cheap to replace. If you're going to spend money then it's a technically one of the cheapest highest performance yielding modifications you can make to the v6 stang. And truthfully unless you've got an ungodly long stretch on the track you won't be spending much time red lining it at 115 anyway.
a new drive shaft doesnt increase hp, it may release 1-2 hp because of less rotational mass... still a 600 dollar part..
3) HP isn't linear across all vehicles. Example, a full exhaust on the BRZ/FRS will net you less than it would on the stang. Reason being, not only does the BRZ/FRS already come with headers whereas the mustang doesn't, but for all we know you could see some considerable gains from the mustangs exhaust. (If there's one thing I've noticed about every Ford I've owned and modified it's that the name of the game with factory Fords is exhaust restriction )
lets say the brz gets a 6hp gain from a cold air intake and the mustang gets a 6 hp gain, the brz will get more out of the gain because its lighter weight, these are example numbers and not actual numbers
4) Both aftermarkets will be huge. The mustang is an iconic vehicle with an incredibly large aftermarket, I have no doubt the BRZ/FRS will have a large aftermarket also. As for which one will be bigger, only time will tell.
i still see the brz aftermarket being larger in a couple years...but with the mustang getting better, yeah i guess they will be the same(edit)
5) You can't say for sure the FRS/BRZ will be cheaper to modify simply because it has two less cylinders. You're forgetting that Ford is a domestic brand, already giving it a cost advantage in America.
just because the car is domestic doesnt mean the performance parts are made here...
4 pistons will always cost less than 6 pistons of the same quality
16 valves will always cost less than 24 valves of the same quality
suspension parts will always last longer on lighter cars
tires will always last longer on a lighter car
brakes will be cheaper and last longer on lighter cars
6) Last but not least, I'm not understanding where you got your "built cost" estimations from. Stock for stock the V6 and the BRZ are roughly the same price (track pack included), and just as a point of reference a Ford Racing Supercharger kit for the GT (I know it's not a V6 but hear me out) is $6k from FORD; meaning it's likely to be cheaper from Kenne or Jackson Racing. So I can't see a smaller blower or turbo costing equal or more than the GT. What I'm trying to say is I feel like you've exaggerated the modification costs of the V6. Domestics are notoriously cheap to modify, hell my brother built his old 10sec foxbody for under 5k.
trd superchargers go for 4-5k aswell...
yeah that fox body may be able to do 10 second runs... but that fox body is only good for 10 seconds, you couldnt run it all day at a track...
so your brother spent less than 5k on coilovers, headers, exhaust, intake, ecu, tune, rims, and tires, and maybe his 75-150 wet shot...

my friend built his z28 to do 10 second runs with under 2k, the car did 7 runs before he blew the head off the gaskets...

ohh and the built cost includes
brake kit
tires
rollcage
exhaust
headers
brake lines
forged internals
aftermarket ecu
clutch
flywheel
oil pump
baffling oil pan
dry sump



Also, I don't get what's up with #3, the same thing is true for the stang (O.o).

BOLD is what i have to say

so in the mustang you can fit 4 tires and rims and a jack, jack stands tool chest extra brake pads and calipers with you?

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Wholly crap you don't like the Mustang. Great. Fine.
But where the hell are you pulling these numbers from?
Seriously, can you put it in a table or something. You've obviously gone top end and every last thing needed for the Mustang and gone cheapo tyres for the BRZ/FRS. It is simple enough to at least pick the same replacement tyres for them, that is a dead easy one to rationalise.

not that i dont like them, my friend actually owns one and i dont give him crap for owning one

im just saying the brz is more practical than the mustang for track use and every day considering the pricey tires on the mustang, my uncles lambo has 1600 dollar tire changes and they are good tires too!

im just not a fan of the v6 i like the v8 its a very spectacular motor and the boss 302 is a better machine past that, def a good bang for your buck

plus my friend isnt happy his 3.7L is having sludge issues at 25k miles
they had to flush his engine at the dealership because of it(free service which was at least cool )

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I bolded a few things that are either untrue or you can't say for sure at the moment.

1) First thing is the V6 mustang actually gets better gas mileage than the FRS/BRZ
2)The limiter is removable and the driveshaft is very cheap to replace. If you're going to spend money then it's technically one of the cheapest highest performance yielding modifications you can make to the v6 stang. And truthfully unless you've got an ungodly long stretch on the track you won't be spending much time red lining it at 115 anyway.
3) HP isn't linear across all vehicles. Example, a full exhaust on the BRZ/FRS will net you less than it would on the stang. Reason being, not only does the BRZ/FRS already come with headers whereas the mustang doesn't, but for all we know you could see some considerable gains from the mustangs exhaust. (If there's one thing I've noticed about every Ford I've owned and modified it's that the name of the game with factory Fords is exhaust restriction )
4) Both aftermarkets will be huge. The mustang is an iconic vehicle with an incredibly large aftermarket, I have no doubt the BRZ/FRS will have a large aftermarket also. As for which one will be bigger, only time will tell.
5) You can't say for sure the FRS/BRZ will be cheaper to modify simply because it has two less cylinders. You're forgetting that Ford is a domestic brand, already giving it a cost advantage in America.
6) Last but not least, I'm not understanding where you got your "built cost" estimations from. Stock for stock the V6 and the BRZ are roughly the same price (track pack included), and just as a point of reference a Ford Racing Supercharger kit for the GT (I know it's not a V6 but hear me out) is $6k from FORD; meaning it's likely to be cheaper from Kenne or Jackson Racing. So I can't see a smaller blower or turbo costing equal or more than the GT. What I'm trying to say is I feel like you've exaggerated the modification costs of the V6. Domestics are notoriously cheap to modify, hell my brother built his old 10sec foxbody for under 5k.



Also, I don't get what's up with #3, the same thing is true for the stang (O.o).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14"]nope.avi - YouTube[/ame]

[Boss]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

heres more numbers for you...

set of track package tires for mustang(the ones that are on the head 2 head video)
$1400

set of better tires for the brz that will probably post equal times to the mustang around streets of willow

$500

that means you can go to the track almost 3 times as many times with the brz vs mustang and post very very similar times

No one is going to buy mustang OEM tires for $1400. They will get a set of Nitto NT-05 or any of the other many tires that are better and cheaper.

[JACK 8URT0N]

Originally Posted by mkxr

On the side note, 'acura vtec' - now that's funny.

Makes sense, assuming he meant the Integra Type R, when comparing high revving fun.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

not that i dont like them, my friend actually owns one and i dont give him crap for owning one

im just saying the brz is more practical than the mustang for track use and every day considering the pricey tires on the mustang.

Oh sure, it will definitely cost more to run - especially if you track it, as you have pointed out - as heavy cars are harder on all the wear items, but I think hanging the argument on $1400 tyres is a bit of a reach IMHO :-)

[7thgear]

i've been around track racing and lapping days since 2005

and i can tell you with absolute certainty that heavier cars will burn through parts quicker and tend to pay more for their replacement.

as for tires

think about it this way, RS3 in 225 X 15 are 155 and 275X18 are 360, that's 800 difference right there, adn you're bound to wear out the Mustang Tires at probably twice the rate

[MKIV]

Originally Posted by Lighting Red

Which is a larger circuit? I am willing to bet that the BRZ has the advantage on larger tracks that favor grip.

Huh?

The car with less power has an advantage on a big track? Really?

The Mustang did better on Streets of Willow and it'll absolutely destroy the BRZ/FR-S at the big track. Smaller cars fair well on tight tracks and larger heavier cars do well on big tracks with no tight corners.

If this comparison is on an auto x track, the BRZ will walk the pony all day long.

[ubersoph]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

BOLD is what i have to say

so in the mustang you can fit 4 tires and rims and a jack, jack stands tool chest extra brake pads and calipers with you?

Uh... have you LOOKED inside a mustang? You most certainly, and easily can.

I'm picking the BRZ for a reason, but c'mon - check the mustang out before you espouse opinions on it. The mustang is a great car all around. Less sharp/pure than the BRZ, but it compromises for a different and totally enjoyable driving experience.

[Lighting Red]

Originally Posted by MKIV

Huh?

The car with less power has an advantage on a big track? Really?

The Mustang did better on Streets of Willow and it'll absolutely destroy the BRZ/FR-S at the big track. Smaller cars fair well on tight tracks and larger heavier cars do well on big tracks with no tight corners.

If this comparison is on an auto x track, the BRZ will walk the pony all day long.

You would be right in questioning me if I were talking about the BRZ vs. Mustang in that particular post you quoted, but I was not. I was talking abou the BRZ vs. FR-S in terms of suspension set-up with regards to the type of track one would be suited more towards.

BRZ vs. Mustang on an Auto-X would be an interesting proposition. Would the Mustang's low RPM range torque advantage be enough to overcome the BRZ's superior agility on a tight course? It would be fun watching how that match goes down.

[SnapOv3st3r]

Originally Posted by NickDude84

ok Spaceywilly and that is y i was surprised that the mustang won the race. i would have never thought the mustang would win in what the brz is supposed to dominate. what this video has shown us if you are going to buy a car to race at willow springs stock get the mustang its 1.5 seconds faster.

so ok lets say you are buying this car to take to the track and you are running in some sort of stock spec class this mustang v6 will beat the brz. now if your buying a car to be sporty, comfortable, and roomy you wouldn't get the brz. so what is the advantage of this car? i am not objecting to what these cars were built for i really like the fr-s and i am seriously considering buying one, but i am surprised that it lost against a v6 mustang.

this video showed that the brz/fr-s is slow. i love they way they look and the price is right for me but their is competition from other sources. just wait for the brz/fr-s genesis coup comparison, it would probably be the same. you cannot escape the low torque numbers. those are the most damming numbers.

this is not just car x beat car y its truly shocking that a mundane rental car like a v6 stang with no modification beat the brz in its home turf the track. although i agree that the test driver seemed to like the brz more than the stang its still shocking that everyone on this board seems to gloss over the fact that it lost.

Just to be certain, you don't think that a V6 Stang is going to be 1.5 secs faster than a BRZ on every track do you? Nor that just because you have a V6 Stang you are always going to beat the guy in a BRZ in every race?

No modification? $2k Track package..