Left Hand turn fuel starvation on WOT

[robispec]

Originally Posted by CBR600RR

have you considered getting fuel foam? it is more known in the morotcycle racing world to keep the fuel from sloshing back and forth and upsetting the bike in switchback turns.

teh foam comes in little cubes and is simply stuffed into the fuel tank right up to the brim. it displaces next to no volume of the tank too.

I am guessing that since it isn't happening to you at a full tank that fuel sloch is your problem, and since you are FI your pump is consuming fuel so fast that it is getting air when the fuel sloshes.

this is looking better and better lol

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by CBR600RR

have you considered getting fuel foam? it is more known in the morotcycle racing world to keep the fuel from sloshing back and forth and upsetting the bike in switchback turns.

teh foam comes in little cubes and is simply stuffed into the fuel tank right up to the brim. it displaces next to no volume of the tank too.

I am guessing that since it isn't happening to you at a full tank that fuel sloch is your problem, and since you are FI your pump is consuming fuel so fast that it is getting air when the fuel sloshes.

Might consider this for my ITA car which has a stock tank. What's the degradation rate of this foam? How does it withstand E10 fuel and how often does it need to be replaced?

[Dezoris]

You have to tools to log these issues, I am surprised you are not constantly data logging, when you are out running this hard?

[CBR600RR]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Might consider this for my ITA car which has a stock tank. What's the degradation rate of this foam? How does it withstand E10 fuel and how often does it need to be replaced?

here is a quick ebay link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Gallon-An...#ht_838wt_1156

I am not sure of the degradation rate if any. I have never used it or really read up much on it.

[FRSPirate]

Yeah, heard about the fuel cell foam in bikes as well.
Quick search has a lot of people raving about this stuff:
http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/foam-baffling.html
I have read that you may need to replace it more frequently and that you may need to run another filter but it may be related to cheaper foam. Everything else i have read, the guys linked above are still the first choice in foam baffling. Most complaints are about the cheap stuff from Jegs and Summit.

[Huehuecoyotl]

so...news update

had a good long talk about this..

I am not alone, @robispec has experienced the same issues, so its about carrying high G's thru a corner (he is way lower CG and I am way pushing my r-comps)and pulling fuel out of the bowl just afterwards of a high G event and going WOT-not pump limited, and thats why I have not put a aftermarket pump in, it will only make it worse.

Per Robi, he is about to put his OE pump back in, as it in fact does get worse with the higher flo pump...so that made me feel better about what I had been theorizing from my tests, and we have arrived at identical conclusions, him on NA e85 and me on FI pumpgas, so bigger pump is NOT the answer. Thats the problem rather.

While none of you will ever see this on the street, tho it is a very real issue for those who track it at the limit. As I expect the problem to be worse doing the 12psi testing I'm about to do, it makes me hesitate tracking the car that way, it makes me worry about lean----? leading to Kaboom! and so I think its good to know the track limits of the oe fuel setup,
and the risks goes up as boost goes up

Robi and I agree, the solution is out of the box, meaning the oe fuel tank and setup is where the problem lies, it was never made to do what we are asking it to do. This is gonna slow down my testing, since unlike many guys happy with a dyno chart and a few passed cars on the street, I'm not happy till this thing runs like a wristwatch out on the track

tentatively I'm firming up plans for a visit out to see Robispec to deal with the fuel issue as a priority, end of May is when I plan to be out there for car work. I'm looking at a custom fuel cell.alum solution from him, as its clear he's already ahead of me with recreating the problem and finding a solution, this will be a good, I'm looking fwd to working with Robispec.
If we can solve teh fuel issue, then it makes sense to continue to make it faster, both in corners and in straights, so that helps me continue on to adding better suspension parts-right now I'm fuel limited in corners when I am anything but full of fuel, so adding front control arms, be it Robi or racerx, will need to wait till I solve the fuel issue. If that goes well, I may be up for the robispec cooling kit too...

those of you who have no clue what this is, it will require you either run a high flo setup, like robispecs tuned e85, or FI with high fuel demand, go spend a bunch of time on the track and you will see this thing rear its ugly head, its systemic, not build specific..we have seen it gets worse with adding a high flo pump alone
EDIT:Update,I'm looking into the dynosty solution as well.

this will be something that anyone and everyone who tracks, as your skills and build increase, you will all need once you max out the bowl refill capability on the oe plumbing. Its the magic combo lefty hander, slosh, tank level etc

Originally Posted by Dezoris

You have to tools to log these issues, I am surprised you are not constantly data logging, when you are out running this hard?

I broke the dongle on my ecutek key while lapping, so theres a small gap but usually I am logging, I wasnt logging the fuel rail pressure value that day tho.. next weekend I have the opportunity to track but no dongle...so ... waiting on ecutek and @PERRIN_Jeff to help me recover from that one

[robispec]

confirmed we are working on a 2 pump swirl pot, solution and a full custom cell as well (visions of the NASA 25H running in my head Drivers/sponsors lets talk).

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

so...news update

had a good long talk about this..

I am not alone, @robispec has experienced the same issues, so its about carrying high G's thru a corner (he is way lower CG and I am way pushing my r-comps)and pulling fuel out of the bowl just afterwards of a high G event and going WOT-not pump limited, and thats why I have not put a aftermarket pump in, it will only make it worse.

Per Robi, he is about to put his OE pump back in, as it in fact does get worse with the higher flo pump...so that made me feel better about what I had been theorizing from my tests, and we have arrived at identical conclusions, him on NA e85 and me on FI pumpgas, so bigger pump is NOT the answer. Thats the problem rather.

While none of you will ever see this on the street, tho it is a very real issue for those who track it at the limit. As I expect the problem to be worse doing the 12psi testing I'm about to do, it makes me hesitate tracking the car that way, it makes me worry about lean----? leading to Kaboom! and so I think its good to know the track limits of the oe fuel setup,
and the risks goes up as boost goes up

Robi and I agree, the solution is out of the box, meaning the oe fuel tank and setup is where the problem lies, it was never made to do what we are asking it to do. This is gonna slow down my testing, since unlike many guys happy with a dyno chart and a few passed cars on the street, I'm not happy till this thing runs like a wristwatch out on the track

tentatively I'm firming up plans for a visit out to see Robispec to deal with the fuel issue as a priority, end of May is when I plan to be out there for car work. I'm looking at a custom fuel cell.alum solution from him, as its clear he's already ahead of me with recreating the problem and finding a solution, this will be a good, I'm looking fwd to working with Robispec.
If we can solve teh fuel issue, then it makes sense to continue to make it faster, both in corners and in straights, so that helps me continue on to adding better suspension parts-right now I'm fuel limited in corners when I am anything but full of fuel, so adding front control arms, be it Robi or racerx, will need to wait till I solve the fuel issue. If that goes well, I may be up for the robispec cooling kit too...

those of you who have no clue what this is, go spend a bunch of time on the track and you will see this thing rear its ugly head, its systemic, not build specific



I broke the dongle on my ecutek key while lapping, so theres a small gap but usually I am logging, I wasnt logging the fuel rail pressure value that day tho.. next weekend I have the opportunity to track but no dongle...so ... waiting on ecutek and @PERRIN_Jeff to help me recover from that one

Thanks to you and @robispec for working on this issue! The more I think about it, this really explains what happened to me on the skidpad!

Scott

[King Tut]

No thanks on a higher mounted aftermarket fuel cell. I would rather see a new fuel pump bucket solution. I know you guys are not the only two out there running 10/10ths on track. Has anyone else had this issue?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by robispec

confirmed we are working on a 2 pump swirl pot, solution and a full custom cell as well (visions of the NASA 25H running in my head Drivers/sponsors lets talk).

We gonna take on 949?

Miata vs FRS?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by King Tut

No thanks on a higher mounted aftermarket fuel cell. I would rather see a new fuel pump bucket solution. I know you guys are not the only two out there running 10/10ths on track. Has anyone else had this issue?

I believe the issue is from their respective cars having higher rates of consumption (boost in one case, E85 in the other).

I'm honestly surprised that a stockish car has starvation issues. We ran at ACS with no issue, even with the gas light on (14 degree banked turn, sustained for over 10 seconds, nearly 2G lateral)

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We gonna take on 949?

Miata vs FRS?

That would be awesome. I loved watching the show about the 25 hours this year. It is actually the only thing I have saved on my DVR right now, haha.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I believe the issue is from their respective cars having higher rates of consumption (boost in one case, E85 in the other).

I'm honestly surprised that a stockish car has starvation issues. We ran at ACS with no issue, even with the gas light on (14 degree banked turn, sustained for over 10 seconds, nearly 2G lateral)

I was thinking about Jon Miller setting the TTD record at Roebling last weekend. He was on an E85 tune and some serious grip, but Roebling really only has two left hand turns.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by King Tut

No thanks on a higher mounted aftermarket fuel cell. I would rather see a new fuel pump bucket solution. I know you guys are not the only two out there running 10/10ths on track. Has anyone else had this issue?

its going to be in stock location...rip out old tanks, put in new
by now you know, I go to try and test out whomever's solutions I like* and I think I am liking this alot