Slow Acceleration with Low RPM Launch

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by Koa

I agree, the clutch bite/footbrake method is indeed more predictable and reliable than trying to work the handbrake system as well as your foot pedals.

I just didn't re-write my post properly. No it's far LESS reliable as you've got a much increased requirement for coordination as you are REQUIRED to nail a seamless brake to throttle transition.

[jdd]

Originally Posted by carma143

because it ever so slightly wears out several components.

First off, I know nothing about cars, but here is what I was told when I bought my first manual transmission (back in 1992):

1) A clutch is what you use in a manual transmission vehicle to replace what the transmission does in an automatic vehicle.

2) The clutch WILL wear out. Depending on how you drive, you usually have about 100,000 Km per clutch. Better driving will extend the life.

3) When the clutch goes, you will need to repair it. It is not easy to get to and requires a fair bit of labour. So when you get your clutch replaced, tell them to replace the flywheel at the same time. The flywheel is what spins to engage the engine to the drivetrain. The idea is that feathering of the clutch wears out the flywheel. But it is safer then just dumping the clutch because that would affect parts beyond the flywheel (not good, more expensive).

So feather away my friend, it's much better then dumping.

*Like I stated before, I know nothing about cars, so if any information above is incorrect, please correct me.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by stonenewt

I just didn't re-write my post properly. No it's far LESS reliable as you've got a much increased requirement for coordination as you are REQUIRED to nail a seamless brake to throttle transition.

You do realize there is no need to rush from brake to throttle if you allow the clutch to reach the biting point?

The statement "far LESS reliable" is so laughable it's not even funny. Meanwhile you're trying to tell a noob to juggle the handbrake, the clutch pedal, the brake pedal, and the throttle pedal. Hats off to you old chap.

[Scenic Driver]

Originally Posted by stonenewt

So everyone taught to drive in the UK is being taught to do it wrong?

Since they teach you to drive on the wrong side of the road everything is suspect :-)

Sorry, couldn't help it.

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by Koa

You do realize there is no need to rush from brake to throttle if you allow the clutch to reach the biting point?

Small engines, low idle speeds = stalled engine if you're not quick enough or a roll back because you didn't get onto the throttle fast enough or release the clutch fast enough. I learnt to drive in a 700cc car which weighted just shy of a tonn. Using your method on a gradient above 10% you'd either stall or roll back unless you literally jumped off the brake and then jumped onto the throttle.

The statement "far LESS reliable" is so laughable it's not even funny. Meanwhile you're trying to tell a noob to juggle the handbrake, the clutch pedal, the brake pedal, and the throttle pedal. Hats off to you old chap.

The brake pedal has NO involvement in a pulling away procedure. The car is held on the handbrake with one foot remaining on the clutch and one on the throttle from beginning to end of the procedure.

The beauty of this procedure is it allows for one to increase the starting revs from idle upwards before finding the biting point allowing the driver to simply release the handbrake to pull away from a standstill. The driver can simply keep the throttle & clutch at the same position and the car will continue to move forwards. Of course doing this for long periods will burn the clutch out.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by stonenewt

Small engines, low idle speeds = stalled engine if you're not quick enough or a roll back because you didn't get onto the throttle fast enough or release the clutch fast enough. I learnt to drive in a 700cc car which weighted just shy of a tonn. Using your method on a gradient above 10% you'd either stall or roll back unless you literally jumped off the brake and then jumped onto the throttle.


The brake pedal has NO involvement in a pulling away procedure. The car is held on the handbrake with one foot remaining on the clutch and one on the throttle from beginning to end of the procedure.

The beauty of this procedure is it allows for one to increase the starting revs from idle upwards before finding the biting point allowing the driver to simply release the handbrake to pull away from a standstill. The driver can simply keep the throttle & clutch at the same position and the car will continue to move forwards. Of course doing this for long periods will burn the clutch out.

Learnt.. hmm not familiar with that word, you Brits have funny English

I do this on gradients exceeding 10% all the time. Here's the hills we have in seattle. 18%+ grades all day. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/slide...ttle-31436.php

Or we can view this handy grade diagram to knock your silly 10% gradient clutch bite ineffectiveness argument out the window. Notice it's very mild.

You're cute to think that the clutch bite/footbrake only techniques are inferior when your and your country's technique requires the use of crutching another system altogether.

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by Koa

Learnt.. hmm not familiar with that word, you Brits have funny English

which word?

I do this on gradients exceeding 10% all the time. Here's the hills we have in seattle. 18%+ grades all day. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/slide...ttle-31436.php

And this proves what? You have hills, hey so did I growing up! Getting off my parents drive required a +18% grade climb.

Or we can view this handy grade diagram to knock your silly 10% gradient clutch bite ineffectiveness argument out the window.

I was talking about the 700cc car I learnt to drive in not every single car ever produced...

Notice it's very mild.

... but for a real world example using factory numbers - My engine produces up to 0.47kW at 650rpm with the throttle closed, that's about enough power to hold 1mph up a 10% gradient. Problem is the gearing gives me 2.5mph in 1st at idle! This tells us that it's going to be an absolute b**tch to pull away. Now with my foot flat to the floor I get 7.3kW at 650 rpm, that's enough power for almost 70%! So if I use my right foot for the throttle I'm a little stuck... unless I use my hand for the handbrake! See what happened? It suddenly got REALLY easy because I used the hand brake to give me more power

You're cute to think that the clutch bite/footbrake only techniques are inferior when your and your country's technique requires the use of crutching another system altogether.

The very fact that the hill hold assistance exists is because people do not or, due to vehicle design, cannot effectively use the handbrake. Kind of says it all about the effectiveness of its use doesn't it

[Akari]

Originally Posted by stonenewt

The very fact that the hill hold assistance exists is because people do not or, due to vehicle design, cannot effectively use the handbrake. Kind of says it all about the effectiveness of its use doesn't it

In the US it is not a requirement to have a handbrake in vehicles and in fact many only have a parking break on the floor. While it's recommended practice in other countries, it is not always possible in the US or really taught that way. The fact remains it's easy enough to do without using the handbrake and greatly helps one better master quick clutch engagement.

[Koa]

^^ x10000

[stugray]

My Passat has a hill lock, so I dont need the handbrake OR "jumping off the brake".

I learned to drive stick and was NEVER told to use the handbrake at stops OR on a hill.
I have never rolled back into anyone leaving a hill or stalled it.

If you LEARN to leave from a hill without the handbrake, it is just second nature.

And the "always coast to a stop in gear" is absolute BS as well.
For one, if you want to "use the gear to get out of trouble" you are almost guaranteed to need to change gear ANYWAY if you suddenly decide to change from engine braking to abrupt acceleration.
So one could argue that I can select my desired gear FASTER from neutral than some other random gear.

[Koa]

Let's get some data on this subject. Here's a poll that asks which hill start technique one prefers for typical hills!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77896

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by stugray

And the "always coast to a stop in gear" is absolute BS as well.
For one, if you want to "use the gear to get out of trouble" you are almost guaranteed to need to change gear ANYWAY if you suddenly decide to change from engine braking to abrupt acceleration.
So one could argue that I can select my desired gear FASTER from neutral than some other random gear.

I use the "shift-down-through-the-gears-as-you-slow-down" engine braking technique. Why? Not because it's "correct," not because I like adding extra wear and tear to the synchros, and not because it saves fuel. I do it because it's fun. And fun is why I bought the goddamned car in the first place. Plus it doesn't hurt to get more rev-matching practice.

If you drive this car based on what will extend the life of the synchros an extra 3 months, or what will get you 3% better fuel economy, or what is the "safest" technique, then YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

[fika84]

Than put a 12lb flywheel in the car and start all over..

[jonboy99]

Is this another 'American tries to teach the rest of the world how to drive a manual' thread? Lol.