Titanium Brake Pad Shims - worth it?

[96z2]

After three track days I've noticed that the rubber dust boot for one of the pistons in the right front caliper has a small tear, presumably due to heat. My FR-S is stock except for Michelin PSS in stock sizes and Carbotech XP10/XP8 pads with stock calipers and rotors and ATE DOT 4 fluid. Are titanium brake pad shims worth it? If so, where did you get yours?

[defylogik]

Originally Posted by ninetysixzee

After three track days I've noticed that the rubber dust boot for one of the pistons in the right front caliper has a small tear, presumably due to heat. My FR-S is stock except for Michelin PSS in stock sizes and Carbotech XP10/XP8 pads with stock calipers and rotors and ATE DOT 4 fluid. Are titanium brake pad shims worth it? If so, where did you get yours?

Short answer, no. You need brake cooling. Tracking a car you are going to tear dust seals on calipers. Its a cost of doing business. Save your money for a reman or rebuilt kit.

[smbstyle]

I got ti-shims from knsbrakes.com , like $80 bucks. With all the heat down there, sure can't hurt. I also wrapped the rubberized joints near the rotors with 1500* thermal barrier tape.

Also running a brake cooling kit (Touge Factory kit)

[Element Tuning]

I use to double up on the Ti shims when I was racing a 330 ish brake rotor and it helped but I was getting the brake pads so hot the pistons were making impressions into the backing plates.

I run Ti shims with the Brembo setup on my FRS since I had them and they have helped in the past. When you run an aggressive friction race pad, you will be transferring more heat to the caliper and fluid so no matter what it's harder on those items. Dust seals will never survive if you are really pushing your brakes on the track and I'm not even sure the Ti shims will solve that issue.

Get the Ti shims but also add some brake ducts even if its getto like I did I removed my backing plates, then I just zip tied some 2.5" ducts to the tie rods close to the rotor and then zip tied the duct to the control arm pointing forward and towards the ground. So essentially I'm scooping air that is passing under my splitter. I would imagine a vendor by now has a more elegant solution but it worked like a charm and it's what I had to work with at the track.

[defylogik]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I use to double up on the Ti shims when I was racing a 330 ish brake rotor and it helped but I was getting the brake pads so hot the pistons were making impressions into the backing plates.

I run Ti shims with the Brembo setup on my FRS since I had them and they have helped in the past. When you run an aggressive friction race pad, you will be transferring more heat to the caliper and fluid so no matter what it's harder on those items. Dust seals will never survive if you are really pushing your brakes on the track and I'm not even sure the Ti shims will solve that issue.

Get the Ti shims but also add some brake ducts even if its getto like I did I removed my backing plates, then I just zip tied some 2.5" ducts to the tie rods close to the rotor and then zip tied the duct to the control arm pointing forward and towards the ground. So essentially I'm scooping air that is passing under my splitter. I would imagine a vendor by now has a more elegant solution but it worked like a charm and it's what I had to work with at the track.

Guys - You are running a lot more than stock power, correct? Is this the same car that caught fire at the UTCC?

Just a few point--
What works for high horsepower won't always be necessary at stock power level. It really depends on your driving style.

Factors:
1. Running stability control -vs- not. Stability control is going to use the brakes to maintain stability, this will cause them to heat up more.

2. Late braking, dragging brakes (left foot), trail braking, etc will produce more heat.

3. How long you are on the brakes is a huge factor. Stretching out the braking zone by applying light pressure is going to build more heat than one single hard brake.

I've never had a car i've tracked that didn't have bad caliper DUST SEALS. Note - this isn't a BAD thing if you watch it. Having the piston seals go bad IS BAD. But the dust seals are not the end of the world. You just have to watch them. On the STi they lasted usually 1 day then they completely destroyed themselves. Most track guys doing a rebuild would leave them off. I've never run backing plates on any track car, just the pad. It's one less thing to fail, and one less thing to compress/stress under braking.

Basically it comes down to two things - fix the car (more cooling) or fix the driver (change your technique). If you are getting that much heat into the calipers, i don't think a titanium shim is going to help. Would it hurt to put them on... of course not, but that money could be better spent on ducts or a rebuild kit when the time comes.

Oh yeah, and get some good brake fluid. I used to recommend superblue, but there was a point where that would boil. RB600 is what i recommend now. A bit more spendy, but it seems work better with less frequent boiling.

[CSG Mike]

FWIW, we don't use them, but RBF600 doesn't exactly last for us either if we're doing more than a lap or two at a time.

Since you're in CA, I wouldn't worry too much about dust boots; I've been driving my s2k without boots since pretty much my first track day. It really becomes an issue when you live in an area where you have snow/salt, because that can get in between the piston and caliper, and start causing corrosion/chafing damage.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

FWIW, we don't use them, but RBF600 doesn't exactly last for us either if we're doing more than a lap or two at a time.

Since you're in CA, I wouldn't worry too much about dust boots; I've been driving my s2k without boots since pretty much my first track day. It really becomes an issue when you live in an area where you have snow/salt, because that can get in between the piston and caliper, and start causing corrosion/chafing damage.

Mike, that's exactly what they are for...just extending a lap or so before the fluid gets too hot. Give them a shot. It just extends your session slightly and it may allow you to go to the end of the day before you have to bleed the brakes.

Guys just keep in mind Ti shims will not keep your brake pads from fading due to excessive heat in the pad and rotor. Shims help to keep the heat out of the caliper and the fluid only.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by defylogik

Guys - You are running a lot more than stock power, correct? Is this the same car that caught fire at the UTCC?

Just a few point--
What works for high horsepower won't always be necessary at stock power level. It really depends on your driving

For the record I never had brake fade with the stock brakes and slick tires. I just hardly used the brakes, just a hard short scrub, and release.

What works for high power works for NA but it might not be necessary. I didn't even need brake ducts until we turboed the car but I am running front Brembo which is a substantial upgrade over oem.

I'm not going to comment on anyone's driving just offering my exoperience to the OPs question about Ti shims. The bottom line is that they do help from personal experience in regards to reducing heat transfer to the caliper and fluid.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Mike, that's exactly what they are for...just extending a lap or so before the fluid gets too hot. Give them a shot. It just extends your session slightly and it may allow you to go to the end of the day before you have to bleed the brakes.

Guys just keep in mind Ti shims will not keep your brake pads from fading due to excessive heat in the oad and rotor. Shims help to keep the heat out of the caliper and the fluid only.

It was cheaper for us to put in PMU fluid and just call it a day, but this is definitely good to know; it's hard to filter solid data from the noise, and your post is the first confirmation I've ever seen that they are indeed functional. I'm sure keeping the brakes functioning is a much larger issue for you guys at your level of development (and driving talent!).

We never really had issues with the BRZ brakes. My S2000 on the other hand... I don't even want to think about it. If only someone had just told (forced even) me to get a BBK and ducting to begin with...

[rice_classic]

The pad shims are neither the right answer or wrong answer but they are an answer. Titanium shims do work too. They are just another item in the list of things that can help preserve components.

Will brake ducting help? Yes. Is it the only answer? No.
Will titanium backing plates help? Yes. only answer? No.

On a street car it seems wise to me take steps to preserve your braking components such as dust seal boots. If you want to do this with brake ducts, shims or both then good on ya.

[Element Tuning]

I remember at one of the Formula Atlantic races there was an exhibition Time Attack and the previous year I had raced two cars. Because I had qualified first in Mod and Street I had to stage first for each class so we literally had one car on track and the other running in staging. In any event the next year I didn't feel like racing and hopping into another car for the second race in 90degree weather so another pro driver wanted to run the car so I let him. He pulled off the track with the brakes wasted and I was like did you put the race pads in and bleed? Yes, and said how about the Ti shims? What shims? LOL!

We rebleed the brakes and put the Ti shims in (for the record its possible we doubled up on them which you can do, one oem, one Ti). He was able to complete the TT sessions after that.

So as mentioned it's not going to 100% solve anything but it can be the difference between setting a winning time on your 3rd lap when you used to only get 2 and someone was in your way. Plus any racer knows a firm brake pedal on your timed run is worth a ton of time!

Also I do believe street tires are harder on the brakes vs the slicks I run since you're traction limited and so your braking distances are extended.

Trust me when I say I'm not a parts pusher, I run oem rubber brake lines after all. LOL!

[defylogik]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It was cheaper for us to put in PMU fluid and just call it a day, but this is definitely good to know; it's hard to filter solid data from the noise, and your post is the first confirmation I've ever seen that they are indeed functional. I'm sure keeping the brakes functioning is a much larger issue for you guys at your level of development (and driving talent!).

We never really had issues with the BRZ brakes. My S2000 on the other hand... I don't even want to think about it. If only someone had just told (forced even) me to get a BBK and ducting to begin with...

What's your experience with the PMU brake fluid? That stuff is ridiculously expensive for how we will go through it. And i thought the motul was costly... I have no experience with the project MU stuff, brakes or otherwise..

[defylogik]

I thought of one other thing as a + for brake ducting - giving a little extra life to your wheel bearings.

I'm sure Element knows a few things about how long they last under track abuse muahahaha. Damn subaru and their poor hubs/bearings.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by defylogik

What's your experience with the PMU brake fluid? That stuff is ridiculously expensive for how we will go through it. And i thought the motul was costly... I have no experience with the project MU stuff, brakes or otherwise..

It's actually cheaper per unit volume than RBF660, but has a higher dry boiling point.

It lasts longer before it goes bad in my s2k; well worth the extra cost in that case.

We've never bled the brakes after getting the BBK on the BRZ. Anecdotal evidence, but the stuff sure works!