2013 BRZ vs. 2017 86 (Everyday Driver)

[Is Always Angry]

If you follow these guys you'd know they DID fix the torque dip on their FRS with headers and a tune. Plus, he got some good wheels and tires. He loved it.

Also for those curious the SLC area (where they are) is about 4500ft. The mountains nearby are very steep... Any time I visit from Boise (2700ft) I have a bad time walking around, I can't imagine driving...

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by TofuJoe

The video feels like a cheap shot at the platform. Those guys were late to the game with the car and the supporting mods. They never really understood this car half as much as the people on this forum.

Need more power and to get rid of the torque dip? Header and a tune. $1200. Done.
That's not enough? Forced induction.

Mentioning those things would have lead to a more balanced review instead of this outdated douchebaggery.

They have a thorough review comparing a Jackson Racing twin vs. a twin with a header and tune.

[re-animator]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

These guys live and test in the mountains, some 7000ft above sea level. It's well documented that NA cars in particular don't make the same amount of power at such high altitudes and I suspect the appearance of a worse torque dip on the 2017 car could be complicated by this fact.

I'm fortunate that I live at only 100ft above sea level and my opinion on the power of these cars is that it is more than sufficient. I think these guys need to try travelling somewhere lower altitude and test drive one of these cars again and see what they think about the power then. He did a full power pull in 3rd gear and it looks like it accelerated slower than my car does in 4th gear and I'm 100% stock intake/exhaust/tune.

i remember driving my brz the first week i got it up to the mountains in big bear, around the same elevation. the power dropoff is startling since you are talking about a borderline underpowered car to begin with. i guessed it felt like ~30% less power across the board, which is what most altitude calculators will tell you. This was actually really noticeable once i got into town and sat between 1200-3000 RPM where is basically all your regular driving is. Think about it, at 2000 RPM you usually have like 50whp and 100wtq. Suddenly dropping to 70wtq and 36whp is massive.

[airjonny]

I've been in the more power camp for years and even I found this video to be a bit annoying. A header and tune can fix the dip. Go turbo if you have the bread but get off it with the power complaints.

[nikitopo]

It is funny that they are trying to rev the car from 3k rpm in a steep hill road and saying that the torque dip is not fixed. You are not supposed to drive this car like this. Downshift for god's sake! Torque dip is there on purpose. It is not an engineering issue and a "fix" is irrelevant.

[dowroa]

Ugh. Bad, uninformed comments above.

I am unaffiliated, but I have watched/listened to a lot of their content.

Background -- Todd DID own a Saabaru for some time AND owned an FR-S, personally, for some time.

They are driving Chance's car (filmer) that they flashed back to OEM against the OEM 2017 86.

The point of the video was, stock for stock, has the car improved? From an ex-owner's perspective.

Yes, they are in Colorado in the mountains. Yes, he has done a complete reflash on his old car to about stage 2. Yes, he does know how to down shift. Yes, there are complete vids of this on their channel if you care to look for it.

With the background information out of the way, yes, I don't like this piece. They were attempting to drive, back to back (which is their thing) on the same day the original and updated. It really just came out as "the 86 power and torque sucks". It really didn't say or tell me anything. What I really got out of it, from Todd's perspective was "I made the right decision in moving onto a Lotus". That is a reaching assumption, but that is "validation-type" messages I generally have seen in their videos when his FR-S was compared to anything. While informative for him, it doesn't tell me anything as I am not sold on the FR-S at all and I personally don't have his perspective.

When I look at other YTers, like Justin's BRZ, @justinco, (someone who actually autoXes at a National Level) *and* he lives in Colorado as well.... I just don't know how to take this piece. Justin's opinions of the car appear to fly in the face of everything I saw here. Also, the dyno graphs I have seen also appear to do the same.

Honestly, what I wanted to know that NO ONE has done is -- how much better are the PP brakes? Can they take a real 20 minute session OEM on a high braking track? I have seen conflicting views where C&D LL3 said the brakes were good to go and Justin's where his friend's PP OEM brakes were fading out at the end of the session?

I personally found this video from an ex-FRS owner, @justinco, as a compare/contrast to be more useful, although it is `outdated`, as he knows more about the car now:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMSqd-BT7Bw"]2017 Subaru BRZ first driving impressions - YouTube[/ame]

[DarkSunrise]

Can't really say I'm surprised. The torque dip has been their main complaint for years and Todd tuned out the torque dip on his personal FR-S with a catted FT86SF header.

I've got the same header right now. Even though the torque dip never bothered me, the car does feel more intuitive to drive on the street with no torque dip. It would probably annoy me a bit if I drove a stock car, at least until I got used to it again.

So yeah, not surprising to hear they were disappointed that the torque dip is still there on the refreshed 2017 models. Especially testing those cars in high elevation.

[dowroa]

I went ahead and re-watched, just to ensure it was fresh in my mind. Here are my technical nit-picks:

- At

, Paul talks about getting out of corners and accelerating in performance (i.e. downshifting and out of the torque dip -- Where are these metrics/comparisons/data? I *get* Paul later says at 4:00 they don't do stats... but that is the point of a direct comparison. :| Not HP... but actual feel of both coming out of a corner, as the *data* states the torque dip isn't worse. A way to do this? Side-by-side.
- 6:02 .. we talk about wheels and tires on an Apples to Oranges comparison of cars.
- 6:55 Paul talks about above 5k... but we don't compare it?
- 7:54 Paul's summary was useful, but I didn't agree with his conclusion. "Better cars"? What does that mean? Spending more?


My personal thoughts:

- We compared a BRZ to an 86. That was not useful for an update comparison
- Chance's car already had tires. All performance comparisons can't be done.
- The rest of the video was just "this isn't any better, get an old one"

Look, I get an old one with <insert_performance_parts_here> has some merit, and maybe merit for people who just kinda-drive.

However, if we are going to contrast and compare, why not do so? It should be shades of grey, so lets see hurestically how fine that line is. Then, add in the personal feel and then I think their points of view have A LOT more merit. Alone, it just sounds like self-justified opinions.

I have said it once, and I will say it again. Against Chance's "updated" BRZ (without the re-flash), do the same with a PP BRZ AND GOOD RUBBER (please see tS MPS tires).

That would be one way tell me if the car has improved incrementally.

This, from the feeling I get from the comparison, isn't a comparison and just an 86 "Toyota, you haven't done anything" comparison. Maybe that is the point, but it doesn't leave me feeling like I have't wasted 9:09 of my time.

[nikitopo]

Regarding the "Toyota, you haven't done anything" ...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFkuWUfb41I"]Toyota 86 old Vs new comparison - YouTube[/ame]


One second better lap time is a very good improvement. Usually, such kind of improvements are coming on new model releases and not on a model refresh.

Some might argue that this improvement is not visible on the road. Well this is what the car is and if some don't get it or don't like it then they made a wrong decision from the beginning.

[~el~jefe~]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Ugh. Bad, uninformed comments above.

I am unaffiliated, but I have watched/listened to a lot of their content.

Background -- Todd DID own a Saabaru for some time AND owned an FR-S, personally, for some time.

They are driving Chance's car (filmer) that they flashed back to OEM against the OEM 2017 86.

The point of the video was, stock for stock, has the car improved? From an ex-owner's perspective.

Yes, they are in Colorado in the mountains. Yes, he has done a complete reflash on his old car to about stage 2. Yes, he does know how to down shift. Yes, there are complete vids of this on their channel if you care to look for it.

With the background information out of the way, yes, I don't like this piece. They were attempting to drive, back to back (which is their thing) on the same day the original and updated. It really just came out as "the 86 power and torque sucks". It really didn't say or tell me anything. What I really got out of it, from Todd's perspective was "I made the right decision in moving onto a Lotus". That is a reaching assumption, but that is "validation-type" messages I generally have seen in their videos when his FR-S was compared to anything. While informative for him, it doesn't tell me anything as I am not sold on the FR-S at all and I personally don't have his perspective.

When I look at other YTers, like Justin's BRZ, @justinco, (someone who actually autoXes at a National Level) *and* he lives in Colorado as well.... I just don't know how to take this piece. Justin's opinions of the car appear to fly in the face of everything I saw here. Also, the dyno graphs I have seen also appear to do the same.

Honestly, what I wanted to know that NO ONE has done is -- how much better are the PP brakes? Can they take a real 20 minute session OEM on a high braking track? I have seen conflicting views where C&D LL3 said the brakes were good to go and Justin's where his friend's PP OEM brakes were fading out at the end of the session?

I personally found this video from an ex-FRS owner, @justinco, as a compare/contrast to be more useful, although it is `outdated`, as he knows more about the car now:

Driving 30 minutes down a mountain that was NOT KNOWN to me, the PP brakes did not fade but only gripped tighter after a few minutes. Some would say this is nothing compared to a race, I disagree as a race is flat surface and all the turns are 100% predicted. The brakes performed as designed, totally precise. (the actual definition of precise)

Of course going from 70mph to 20mph for a turn is harder, but the braking I was doing was much longer pulls, and sometimes hitting them hard on the countless blind turns. I tried to keep the gear higher than anyone else would, so the car was not particularly engine braking. They performed as regular brz would be cold. The pedal feel is starting to relax a bit after 5000 miles. I am hoping to drain and refill them soon. I had the car since april.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Honestly, what I wanted to know that NO ONE has done is -- how much better are the PP brakes? Can they take a real 20 minute session OEM on a high braking track? I have seen conflicting views where C&D LL3 said the brakes were good to go and Justin's where his friend's PP OEM brakes were fading out at the end of the session?

No. The brakes in stock form are not going to last a full 20 minute session on track with a decent driver behind the wheel. Not many cars can until you start getting way up in price tag and onto carbon ceramic and such.

The PP Brembos would still need pads and fluid that can take the heat for sustained periods in order to last a full 20 minute session. That's how it is with almost every production vehicle. Everything from the BRZ/FRS, Evo, STI all the way up to BMW Ms, GTRs, etc. The stock brakes are just not meant to work in those conditions for extended use.

With good pads and fluid, I don't see any real issue.

[~el~jefe~]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

No. The brakes in stock form are not going to last a full 20 minute session on track with a decent driver behind the wheel. Not many cars can until you start getting way up in price tag and onto carbon ceramic and such.

The PP Brembos would still need pads and fluid that can take the heat for sustained periods in order to last a full 20 minute session. That's how it is with almost every production vehicle. Everything from the BRZ/FRS, Evo, STI all the way up to BMW Ms, GTRs, etc. The stock brakes are just not meant to work in those conditions for extended use.

With good pads and fluid, I don't see any real issue.

Yes, the fluids are an issue. I already want to replace them at 5000 miles "regular" driving (i think my regular is near track at times, pretty sure actually).

the brakes do not fade stomping on them every few seconds at higherish speeds on crazy turns. I am unsure changing the pad after the OEM brembo pads were mated and bedded to the rotor, is a great idea or a really bad one. I know everyone does this, but I think it has some logical issues with changing the pads back and forth. People will probably froth at the mouth for this comment, as it implies a track car can only be a track car and a daily burning around car can only be a daily burning around car.

[~el~jefe~]

It was either consumer reports or road and track that tested the PP brakes and found that at like 40 stops from 70 to 0 there was no fade, and in fact, shorter stopping distance after the first few. It was 20 or 40 not sure. Still, if one is riding them to death, maybe they do.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by ~el~jefe~

the brakes do not fade stomping on them every few seconds at higherish speeds on crazy turns. I am unsure changing the pad after the OEM brembo pads were mated and bedded to the rotor, is a great idea or a really bad one. I know everyone does this, but I think it has some logical issues with changing the pads back and forth. People will probably froth at the mouth for this comment, as it implies a track car can only be a track car and a daily burning around car can only be a daily burning around car.

I just did this again yesterday. Had my "track" pads on for a while because I did two events and then I switched back to the street pads yesterday.

I've done this a few times now and haven't had any issue. I do notice it takes a few good stops to get the street pads to really start to bite again, but that's pretty much it. I'm sure somebody with more knowledge can give some input as I know there are other things to consider like the "transfer layer" and such.

I know plenty of people that do this though and have zero issues.