Alfa 4-C and Cayman compared to GT86

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Razz

The Scion certainly isn't the standard to measure sports cars. It doesn't even have an independent rear suspension.

They Look pretty independent to me!!


I like how Toyota/Subaru placed their suspension: Macs up front and Doubles in the rear.






VS.

Doubles up front and Macs in the rear.

Oh sorry... In Alfa-Speak they're "Enhanced MacPherson struts".

[Hanni_0176]

If price wasn't an option, I'd rather have the Alfa Romeo over my FR-S all day long. I love manual transmissions, but I've used paddle shifters before and would not be upset to lose the manual for 550 less lbs and 100 more ft/lbs of torque.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Corvettes have independent suspension (as does the FRS/BRZ)...

I'm talking about the older gens the C4/c5. the C6/c7 most likely do, pretty sure the C4/5 had inverted leaf springs

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

I'm talking about the older gens the C4/c5. the C6/c7 most likely do, pretty sure the C4/5 had inverted lead springs

The C7 still has inverted leaf springs (along with double wishbones and magnetorheologic dampers), and that doesn't change the fact that the suspension is independent. In fact, from what I can find, the corvette went to independent rear suspension with the C2 generation in 1963. Independent suspension just means that there is no solid axle, and the geometry is such that moving one wheel doesn't change the orientation or position of the other. The type of spring and damping used (and even the details of the linkage) are irrelevant to whether or not the suspension is independent, and actually, there are good reasons why the inverted composite leaf spring as it is used in the Corvette is actually superior to coilovers in many ways.

Interestingly, from what I can find, the Cayman has MacPherson struts on all 4 corners - no double wishbone to be found anywhere (which is yet more proof that what really matters is how the suspension works together with the chassis, and how it is set up, and you can't just say that one design will always be superior)

[Ganthrithor]

God damnit, every single time I hear a Porsche flat six I can't help but hate myself a little bit for not buying something that contains one. That fucking sound! Seriously what does Porsche do to make their engines sound so damn good-- even the 912's flat-four sounds so much hornier than ours...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

They Look pretty independent to me!!


I like how Toyota/Subaru placed their suspension: Macs up front and Doubles in the rear.






VS.

Doubles up front and Macs in the rear.

Oh sorry... In Alfa-Speak they're "Enhanced MacPherson struts".

i think the macs just end up where the engine is for packaging purposes. for what its worth i also think they get a different name in the rear for no real reason.

Originally Posted by chrisl

The C7 still has inverted leaf springs (along with double wishbones and magnetorheologic dampers), and that doesn't change the fact that the suspension is independent. In fact, from what I can find, the corvette went to independent rear suspension with the C2 generation in 1963. Independent suspension just means that there is no solid axle, and the geometry is such that moving one wheel doesn't change the orientation or position of the other. The type of spring and damping used (and even the details of the linkage) are irrelevant to whether or not the suspension is independent, and actually, there are good reasons why the inverted composite leaf spring as it is used in the Corvette is actually superior to coilovers in many ways.

Interestingly, from what I can find, the Cayman has MacPherson struts on all 4 corners - no double wishbone to be found anywhere (which is yet more proof that what really matters is how the suspension works together with the chassis, and how it is set up, and you can't just say that one design will always be superior)

i wish people would understand this rather than throwing out the impossible "all else equal" clause you see in the matters of not only mac sruts to double wishbones but in the live axle comparison or in the wheels a car is driven by or any other host of stupid reasons people write off a car without any firsthand experience.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think the macs just end up where the engine is for packaging purposes. for what its worth i also think they get a different name in the rear for no real reason.

I know dude, that was the point of the post, well that the fact that the suspension design of the FRS really is damn good.

Originally Posted by fatoni

i wish people would understand this rather than throwing out the impossible "all else equal" clause you see in the matters of not only mac sruts to double wishbones but in the live axle comparison or in the wheels a car is driven by or any other host of stupid reasons people write off a car without any firsthand experience.

The concept of Ceteris Paribus exists for a damn good reason and dismissing it is rather foolish.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I know dude, that was the point of the post, well that the fact that the suspension design of the FRS really is damn good.


The concept of Ceteris Paribus exists for a damn good reason and dismissing it is rather foolish.

i think their called a chapman strut or something specifically.

maybe its in its misuse due to a myopic viewpoint. the problem with all else equal is that things are never equal. the most often use of that argument here is that rwd vs fwd case. people always say "all else equal" when they mean "when you take away all the fwd advantages." fwd can be more compact, it puts more power to the wheels and its lighter. those advantages are never discussed under the guise of "all else being equal." its just a matter of people valuing theoretical ideals over real world applications. i guess thats the internet for you.

[bdbx18]

Richard Hammond tested the 4c in a recent TG episode and it is possibly the few segments I keep watching over and over again. The reason is that my BRZL is also red and their red 4c have so much similarities. I don't know about the twice-as-much cost to buy plus possibly thrice-as-much cost to maintain though.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/r...-4c-2013-11-28
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/a...n-uk-2013-1-16

[Slash]

FD RX7's have the Mac in the rear and double wishbone in the front like the alfa, and that's not mid engine obviously.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Slash

FD RX7's have the Mac in the rear and double wishbone in the front like the alfa, and that's not mid engine obviously.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

With the Cayman, I know at least part of the reason for using the macs in the rear is because the exhaust routing goes exactly where the upper A-arm in a double wishbone would have to go. I don't know much about the details of the RX7 though...

[Ganthrithor]

I'll just leave this here:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGwawx4zaMg&feature=c4-overview&list=UU5rBpVgv83gYPZ593XwQUsA"]Alfa 4C v Porsche Cayman S - /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]


Alfa gets handed its hat. Seems like a car someone would only buy if they were infatuated with its looks and simply needed one. Why buy something that's "a bit like an Elise" for that much money when you could just buy an actual Elise instead?

[carter86]

Troll

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

I'm talking about the older gens the C4/c5. the C6/c7 most likely do, pretty sure the C4/5 had inverted leaf springs

Every Corvette since 1963 has independent rear suspension. Always transverse leaf in back, transverse leaf also up front since 1984.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_spring"]Corvette leaf spring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]