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Old 07-11-2014, 10:56 PM   #1
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LSx engine swap for track use, thread

I have a similar/related thread on the engine board; but that one is more casual, general, could be any engine and purely engine/power related pretty much.

Mainly, I want to hear insight/opinions and start a discussion about this topic from here, since this board is more compromised of experienced track heads that are more focused on the track and handling abilities and aspect of this car.

This thread is about an LS1/LS3/LSx engine swap inside an 86.
(please try to keep it LSx-only, for simplicity)


I'll start off with a few questions...

- What are some pros and cons of doing this swap for track use and also in general in terms of overall balance, handling, form of the car?

..please list anything ..from possibly big or small balance changes, drastic or not really drastic COG changes, how much F/R weight distribution will be affected, better idea vs heavily modded FI FAs, overall balance and handling, rev band and engine characteristics, shifting and gearbox, reliability issues, consumables, suspension/tires/brakes/aero parts needed to handle the new 450whp, the fun factor, any track improvements, ability to learn from and control it, suspension setups and spring rates, worth the cost, turning a momentum car into a power car, etc etc etc etc etc....

- Is it a good idea and advisable to do such a swap? ...maybe down the road, 5-10 years from now, when the car and its' FA gets older and you'd like to maybe "revamp" it because you'd like to keep your beloved car instead of selling it.

- What are the most important things about the car that need to be addressed so the overall car can handle its' new power well/sufficiently on the track? ...obviously wheels/tires, suspension and brakes..maybe aero ...anything else?



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Old 07-11-2014, 11:12 PM   #2
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As a street car, it seems like a cool and fast idea. As a track car, I have no doubt that it'd be fast, but I'd wager that the balance would be pretty screwed up, and may change the characteristics of the car too much.

I've seen miatas with LSx swaps and they are fast but don't do as well as a turbo'd one most of the time. Still though, I love seeing that beast run.
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:23 AM   #3
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I like you s/n. Make me hunger. Lol.

But ya..supposedly, an all aluminum LSx engine isn't much heavier than an FA. People say only 40-60lbs weight difference..which would be on par with an FI setup + intercooler and other bits. But for sure the placement of the engine will play a roll..depending on how far aft or fore compared to stock and also COG. But also, supposedly, domestic pushrod V8s have a lower COG compared to typical overhead cam engines, as all its' camshafts bits, cams, cam gear, etc is in the middle and not on top like a typical DOHC/OHC engine.

According to the Vorshlag page..the FA fully dressed with tranny weighs in at 480#. LS1 engine is 460# (including the heavy cast headers and heavy flywheel) and Tremec tranny is an additional 130#, for a total of #590...which is a #110 difference. But Vorshlag says, after ridding of the stock cast headers and also the stock heavy flywheel, the difference would only be 40-60#...which is realistic given cast iron headers are heavy and also a stock v8 flywheel is 40lbs+. I can also see the custom aluminum driveshaft used in the kit would save additional weight. And also battery relocation or replacement with a lightweight unit.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:27 AM   #4
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Static weight isnt the only issue.
You are also moving the cg up quite a bit.

No doubt, it would be an interesting swap, but whats the end goal?

If youre looking for reliable 650hp, then yeah.

If youre only looking for 450ish, then why go through all that?
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:38 PM   #5
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You'll never get the power to the ground. There is one in town and apparently it's mainly good for burning rubber.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:11 PM   #6
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What about with a wide body and wider wheels + proper chassis mounted GT wing? It'd be a ton of work to get a track ready car out of it, but it was something I've been mulling around and was contemplating doing next year.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:22 PM   #7
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So, so far, general consensus on the track forum and by track heads is, nay.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:26 PM   #8
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You need more weight in the back. A stock LS3 makes a lot of torque 400+! You'll need some front uprights that allow for minimum static front camber or run much wider tires so you don't end up with a car that under steers into a corner then snaps into over steer coming out!

Point is that it will take a good deal of development to make it put the power down and handle well.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:30 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by scudzey View Post
What about with a wide body and wider wheels + proper chassis mounted GT wing? It'd be a ton of work to get a track ready car out of it, but it was something I've been mulling around and was contemplating doing next year.
Would a wide body and gt wing really be required/nessecasry though?

The width of an FRS and a C7 is very similar (70" vs 74" respectively..C6, even more similar at 72").

Tires would be the biggest concern for traction. But, you can easily fit 245-265 tires under a stock body FRS. Question is, will 255 be enough for 450whp?? Prolly not huh?

GT wing...I'm not sure this is required unless you're looking to hit top speed records, or have a real racecar. Yes, 450hp will be much faster...but, there are also many with FI FA FRSs with no huge GT wing.

To me, it sound like makin it track ready would be not much different than your current/regular FA FRS. The biggest concern is getting that power down with sufficient tires and if 255-265 would work. Everything else would be the same correct? - wheels/tires, suspension bits and coilovers, bbk, and that's pretty much it.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:35 PM   #10
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So, so far, general consensus on the track forum and by track heads is, nay.
IMHO - you'll end up spending way more than if you simply bought Corvette or a Porsche GT3; both excellent track toys. Note that even the Corvettes have a hard time with all that power; it is tough to get all that power to the ground in a front engined car.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodman View Post
Would a wide body and gt wing really be required/nessecasry though?

The width of an FRS and a C7 is very similar (70" vs 74" respectively..C6, even more similar at 72").

Tires would be the biggest concern for traction. But, you can easily fit 245-265 tires under a stock body FRS. Question is, will 255 be enough for 450whp?? Prolly not huh?

GT wing...I'm not sure this is required unless you're looking to hit top speed records, or have a real racecar. Yes, 450hp will be much faster...but, there are also many with FI FA FRSs with no huge GT wing.

To me, it sound like makin it track ready would be not much different than your current/regular FA FRS. The biggest concern is getting that power down with sufficient tires and if 255-265 would work. Everything else would be the same correct? - wheels/tires, suspension bits and coilovers, bbk, and that's pretty much it.
You need more weight in the back and 300+ rears
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by D K View Post
Static weight isnt the only issue.
You are also moving the cg up quite a bit.

No doubt, it would be an interesting swap, but whats the end goal?

If youre looking for reliable 650hp, then yeah.

If youre only looking for 450ish, then why go through all that?
Yes, I've mentioned COG. Asking how much of it will be affected though- greatly or minimally? How can COG be measured and compared to original FA FRS though?

Not really talking about trying to make a 650whp super dyno queen ...but having a solid, reliable, ultra low maintanence, NA and OEM STOCK engine naturally making 400-450whp from the factory....which sounds 1000000x more reliable than a problematic, high maintanence, more parts, 400whp FI FA (aka.. ticking time bomb).

A low maintanence, reliable, more simplistic, powerful NA track car will always be more desired than a high maintanence, problematic and complex FI track car.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:51 PM   #13
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@Sleepless:

Thanks. You bring many great points up that make perfect sense - the possible understeer and exit oversteer, non sufficient weight, non sufficient tires, etc.

I guess it isn't as simple as it sounds and will take massive amounts of engineering to get that big power down around a track and make it handle well correctly.

The new C7 sounds like a better option, lol. And it's only $52k...much cheaper than an FRS with an LS3, Tremec, BBK, good coilovers and tires/wheels (which is already around $60-70k...and these are only the basic/minimal mods..add more expense if you want to change out other things like suspension arms, sways, wide kit, aero, etc etc)
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodman View Post
Yes, I've mentioned COG. Asking how much of it will be affected though- greatly or minimally? How can COG be measured and compared to original FA FRS though?

Not really talking about trying to make a 650whp super dyno queen ...but having a solid, reliable, ultra low maintanence, NA and OEM STOCK engine naturally making 400-450whp from the factory....which sounds 1000000x more reliable than a problematic, high maintanence, more parts, 400whp FI FA (aka.. ticking time bomb).

A low maintanence, reliable, more simplistic, powerful NA track car will always be more desired than a high maintanence, problematic and complex FI track car.

Im boosted and making half decent power.
I have a few couple of thousand track miles now.

So far, the engine is staying together.
Why, because we started with supporting mods, and slowly moved on from there.
Spent a lot of time on the dyno with a top tuner.

I would not hesitate to squeeze over 400 out of the FA eventually and still b reliable on the track.

I think it comes down to your prep work and finding a great tuner to work with.

A lot of guys are posting big numbers on the dyno and then doing 2 laps at a track day before they run into problems.

D
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