Tada Tetsuya Announces Updated 86 Will Be Coming... Soon

[Tromatic]

Regardless, I love my 13 FR-S, and don't care what they may or may not do to it,

[brzadrian]

TURBO

[xxBrun0xx]

Originally Posted by regal

Even #4 is B.S when a turbo is idling at cruising speeds you loose less than a half a mpg, xxBrun0xx you need to read some Corky Bell. The two biggest US auto makers went to DIT because the gas milage is so good better hp mpg ratio. The FA20T could be tuned a million ways and surely it won't be worse mpg.

Yes, you can get better mpg in a turbo 4 than an NA 6, which is what the OEM's you speak of are doing. Would adding a turbo to an existing engine increase your mpg? I don't think so because 1) You're adding weight, plain and simple. More piping, the turbo itself, maybe an intercooler, more coolant/oil lines, etc. 2) Once your turbo is spooled, you need to run very rich to prevent knock. In an NA car under the same load, you can run far more lean, and are therefore more effiently using your fuel to make power.


I could be wrong about this, and if I am, I'd love to know why. I'm happy being wrong if I can learn something.

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by xxBrun0xx

Yes, you can get better mpg in a turbo 4 than an NA 6, which is what the OEM's you speak of are doing. Would adding a turbo to an existing engine increase your mpg? I don't think so because 1) You're adding weight, plain and simple. More piping, the turbo itself, maybe an intercooler, more coolant/oil lines, etc. 2) Once your turbo is spooled, you need to run very rich to prevent knock. In an NA car under the same load, you can run far more lean, and are therefore more effiently using your fuel to make power.


I could be wrong about this, and if I am, I'd love to know why. I'm happy being wrong if I can learn something.

You are correct !

Turbo car is efficient in the term of power, but not gas milage.

FE, a V6 Twin Turbo can be made to produce more power than a V8 with less gas consumption when the turbo is not Tapped into, also the Forced Fed Air allow for more Torque in that instant vs the NA V8 with a linear Torque. Therefore, you feel the Rolling Coaster effect in a Turbo car, but not the NA.

The same can be said for a Turbo 4, it can be made to produce the same power as a V6 or I6 with less fuel consumption when the turbo is not Tapped in.

But as far as Turbo 4 vs NA 4. There is simply no comparison. The reason is simple, you can never compare a Naked Women to a Dressed Women.....

***PS*** The reason why Toyota and Honda are not a big fan of the Turbo engines = The maintenance, The reliability of the car. An example of an NA with Linear Torque, and you change oil every 10-15k miles. A Turbo Engine will need Oil every 3000-3700 miles. That is 3-5 times the Oil changes Needed. Not to mention the Complications of a Turbo Engine, which needed to be accounted for....Under Load, Idle, Weather, Elevation, Temperature, Pipings, Coolings, Turbo lags.....ETC.

Toyota want Hybrid instead of Turbo.....because of less complications, longer reliability, no turbo lag, Instant Torque, and truly better Gas Milage. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota Next Gen Supra carry the Most Advanced Inline 4 Hybrid system of the car.

Check out the Yaris Hybrid R, that Monster carry only a 2.0 I-4 with Duo Motors, and 4 independent Super Capacitors to distribute Corner Gripping Torque. The combination of the system output is 450 HP...holy heck.

In term of Modding, it is not hard to Upgrade the Super Capacitors and the Regenerators, and brings out better Stopping Power together with more Instant Torque when cornering. Due to the Hybrid system Toyota had designed, the Electrical components work independently off the ICE. Therefore, any modifications to increase HP on the ICE will not Disrupt the way the Hybrid system work.

Imagine Raising the 200 HP in the ICE to 300 HP, and Upgrade the Motors and Generators to output 50% more Torque, and not to sacrifice the MPG. Imagine 550 HP and 750 lbs/ft combined Torque with 400 Lbs/ft Available as soon as 0 RPM.

[mkivalex]

Originally Posted by regal

Well turbos aren't reliable enough for the Toyota nameplate, Tada hates them. Toyota is one of the last hold outs on small car DIT's.


IME Squeezing more reliable hp out of the NA FA20 would be more expensive that tweaking the FA20T that's been on the shelf a couple years.


See where I'm going with this? I've been saying a while now that this car will only survive as a Subaru. I think Toyota is after the BMW M2 price category for a sporty GT. I mean The M1 was practically a Supra except the exterior (twin turbo, I6,rwd and unlimited HP.)


Toyota's statements recently just add up to a loss of interest by them. Subaru on the other hand has a car (including the FRS) that sold more than the WRX domestically. They have more incentive and hold the cards with a Toyota free DIT engine on the shelf ready to be detuned a little a dropped in. Alll they need is more dealerships, that's where Scion' departure from Toyota comes in.




Scion was supposed to sell to the younger Japanese car buyer cool crowd , but since its inceptions the WRX is the hip car. Subaru could revitalize Scion with the BRZ and WRX alone, add a hatchback. I think the hand writing is on the wall. They might not call them Scions but I think a deal is in the works.


Think of this : financially Subaru needs this platform, Toyota doesn't.

Not that I think they are going to turbo it anytime soon, and I think these debates back and forth are silly and are pure speculation...


Turbos aren't reliable enough for Toyota? Do you not recall quite a list of reliable Turbo Toyota engines over the years, because I can.

[davidp]

Originally Posted by xxBrun0xx

Yes, you can get better mpg in a turbo 4 than an NA 6, which is what the OEM's you speak of are doing. Would adding a turbo to an existing engine increase your mpg? I don't think so because 1) You're adding weight, plain and simple. More piping, the turbo itself, maybe an intercooler, more coolant/oil lines, etc. 2) Once your turbo is spooled, you need to run very rich to prevent knock. In an NA car under the same load, you can run far more lean, and are therefore more effiently using your fuel to make power.


I could be wrong about this, and if I am, I'd love to know why. I'm happy being wrong if I can learn something.

atm turbo is more fuel efficient efficient than n/a past a certain point around 80HP per litre of displacement

[regal]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

Regardless, I love my 13 FR-S, and don't care what they may or may not do to it,

I agree, the only reason I want then to use the subau turbo version of this engine is so the car doesn't fail, I pretty happy with mine too.


This FA20T is a small 2 liter engine, they can use a the right turbo and tuning to where there is no need for a beefed up drive train, maybe a stiffer clutch but that's about it, better tires. It doesn't have to cost any more than $25k. The SR20DET was about 250 hp at its end and it had basically the same drivetrain, I think the twins differential is beefier than the S15's was.


I don't undertand why people think a turbo is going to add so much cost to this car. The basics of the FA20T are all reading on the road it just needs a slower and lower toque ramp-up turbo and deuned a bit.


I would worry more about the top execs at Toyota-Subaru than the price and engineering.


everyone keeps saying we just want 50hp and no torque dip, with a DI engine a turbo is the least expensive smartest way to do that,




There's a lot a negative thinking on this refreh that is unwarranted IMHO.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by mkivalex

Turbos aren't reliable enough for Toyota? Do you not recall quite a list of reliable Turbo Toyota engines over the years, because I can.

I'd love to hear the list, I'm not terribly knowledgeable on Toyota. I assume you're not going to include racecars. The only ones that spring to my mind are Supra/Celica/MR2 all had turbo trims.

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by mkivalex

Not that I think they are going to turbo it anytime soon, and I think these debates back and forth are silly and are pure speculation...


Turbos aren't reliable enough for Toyota? Do you not recall quite a list of reliable Turbo Toyota engines over the years, because I can.

I never said such thing. I said Toyota does not like Turbo Engines. Read my post more throughout and you will know why. Or even if you own a Turbo car yourself.

Did you even know why Mazda Stopped the Turbo Miata ? same exact reasons

In term of Reliability, of course Toyota and Honda are Kings. A Turbo Toyota is always more reliable than a Turbo Ford, or any other Manufacturers Turbo vehicles for instant

[Whitigir]

Porsche 918 Spyder (Weissach Package) – 6:57s Nurburing Lap, which is full 9 seconds faster than 2015 GT-R

That car is a Hybrid With a combined 875bhp and 944lb ft of torque

Now...that is what the Future will bring.

Imagine a Hybrid from Toyota which cost 12x time less and still gonna bring you some what close performance when you AFTER MARKET MODIFYING it.

Bring us the Hybrid 86 already!!

[mkivalex]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

I never said such thing. I said Toyota does not like Turbo Engines. Read my post more throughout and you will know why. Or even if you own a Turbo car yourself.

Did you even know why Mazda Stopped the Turbo Miata ? same exact reasons

In term of Reliability, of course Toyota and Honda are Kings. A Turbo Toyota is always more reliable than a Turbo Ford, or any other Manufacturers Turbo vehicles for instant

I wasn't referring to your post when I said that, it was the post above you.

I have a pretty strong understanding of the efficiency of a turbocharged motor vs a NA motor, and I wouldn't argue for a second with you on your comments, I was more referring to "regals" posts. I would love to see what could be done with the FRS using some of the same technologies used in the "Hypercars" that we are now seeing.

I did not say that turbo engines are the most reliable, more that Toyota has a history of using them in their sports cars, which for the most part are nothing but reliable (example, my 2JZ supra in the garage that has had next to no issues), although the technologies of today are so different than they were 20 years ago. I would be disappointed if this chassis becomes retired without atleast an experimental power adder from the factory, whether it be a DIT engine, displacement increase or the addition of some sort of hybrid technology. I most likely wont be in line to buy it, I already have my FRS in the driveway, but being an Automotive engineer, it just gets me excited to see what they can do with it.


Even if there are no increases its already beginning to light the fire under other manufactures feet, we are already seeing confirmations of the Nissan IDX, who knows what will come back, an Integra Type R revival? Ok now I'm dreaming.



But for your list of Turbo Toyotas...


Sit back and take a look over the list


http://www.adlracing.com/Docs/ToyotaTurbos.pdf

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

Porsche 918 Spyder (Weissach Package) – 6:57s Nurburing Lap, which is full 9 seconds faster than 2015 GT-R

More accurately, it's 12 seconds faster than the 2015 Nismo GT-R with the track package (which could be pushing $200k)...

[regal]

Originally Posted by regal

Well turbos aren't reliable enough for the Toyota nameplate, Tada hates them. Toyota is one of the last hold outs on small car DIT's.

.

Todays greenbelt Toyota not 20 years ago Toyota. They ain't the same company. even their CEo admitted that.


If that doesn't suit you why are all powerful 4 cylinders using DIT technology and Toyota not? Turbos don't fit their statistics. They even chose a supercharger on the Elise 2ZZ (which was fine but more $'s.)


They probably ran all the numbers on subaru's turbos and got scared.


All the while the ecoboost (ford), ecotech (GM), Fuel sratisfied Injection (VW), all of Hyundia just to name he biggest auto makers. Toyota is conspicuously missing from the list. Before you say Honda their proto roadster is DIT.


Heck Subaru even has a 1.6L 240hp DIT that would great but beter than the fA20 mistake with sme tweaking (IMHO).

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by chrisl

More accurately, it's 12 seconds faster than the 2015 Nismo GT-R with the track package (which could be pushing $200k)...

Exactly, and this will be the reason why more Manufacturers will soon go Hybrid in the future. There are countless of reasons to do so.

1/ Electric Motors give Immediate Torque

2/ Electric Motors will last forever under the right operation temperature, and efficiency. Your ICE will probably die before the Motors

3/ Electric Motors Bushings can easily be replaced, if it worn out, and is the only thing that could go wrong.....maybe millions miles later and the Permanent magnets need replaced (Note: Permanent**)

4/ Battery Packs allow Better Weight Distribution in the Vehicle for Better Balance

5/ Electric Motors can easily be Upgraded for More HP and More Torque, just need better cooling, and no Tune needed

6/ Electric Motors can Independently be placed on each wheels with it's own Chips. It can do a better job at Torque Vectoring, and Maximize the Frictions and Grips, or Minimize Slipage

7/ Battery are Recycling resources

8/ Hybrids can be Combined with any Available Energy Sources: Diesel, Gasoline, Natural gas, Hydrogen.....etc. You name it

9/ Save Gas, Save the Planet, Less Toxic wastes.....

10/ Electric Motors can Replace Limited Slip Differential, and do a better jobs
.
.
.
.
Ways too much more to list

The Keys here are: To have the Internal Combustion Engine to work Independently from the Electric Motors or Electrical components

Under that condition:

1/ You can Turbo your ICE, or Bolts on, whatever float your boat to Boost the ICE HP and Torque....

2/ You can Leave your ICE alone, and Upgrade your Motors and or Electrical Components for more Torque

3/ You can do both while raising your ICE Horse Power, and Increasing the Torque from the Electrical components

4/ You can mod the Electric Components to do 0-60 in 2 seconds, and immediately switch to your Engine to do 55-155 MPH in a total of 10 seconds...wut ?

Endless possibilities to mod, and enjoy your own creation.

Remember Torque is what move you

Hybrid is the only Technology that Allow you to Adjust your own Torque vs HP on the FLY.....depending on Tastes, Track Conditions, Time Attacks....etc.